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On the issue of lag: The real story

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  • On the issue of lag: The real story

    Recently I've seen many different people talk about lag and its effects on the game. Those who have lag have quite obviously defended their positions while those who don't or at least have less of it argue that lag destorys the game. There has been a serious lack of real analysis on this (save a few people) and much more namecalling on this subject. In this post I hope to clarify what lag does once and for all. I base this on my experience in this game of over 5 years and at least 8 ISPs. I've had lag from 1000ave ping to 40/40/40/40/0.0/0.0.

    1. Levels of Lag
    ----------------
    The fact of the matter is in this game, any lag numbers above 150 will qualify you as a "lagger". Because of the way Trench Wars is built, this is even more promanent as the effects of lag will be seen as hits which don't kill, or jumpyness (especially in the warbird game where thrust screws up the SS prediction code). For almost everyone living in North America a ping of under 150 is simply impossible. Because of the fact that a majority of the Trench population is from North America, it is reasonable to assume that most people will lag above 150 ping.

    For those with a "good" connection they can easily hover at sub 200 ping, while almost every falls under the 300 ping range. It's safe to say that 10 players all playing in the 200-300 ping range will see lag, but can still have a good game.

    At around 300 ping, you start seeing very visible jumps. Basically everytime a person uses thrust to move, the SS prediction code will make it look like they moved further than they really did, then "warp" them backwards as their lag catches up with the server. Also at the 300 ping range (270-320), it's safe to say that 1/2 the time you hit that person (no matter what your ping) it's not going to kill them. Already problems can be seen. If you have this range of lag, you're most likely considered a "lagger" by almost evryone.

    Yet it dosen't end here. Above the 350 ping mark you can pretty much say all these people have a BAD connection. More than 1/2 the time you hit them (if you manage to actually hit their jumpy ships) they will definately not die. They are also excessively hard to hit as they are jumpy. Finally their bullets will appear an inch from their ship making it very hard to dodge them as this one inch can be either one inch in front, or at times the bullet will pop out one inch BEHIND them. For them to hit you most of the time has nothing to do with skill, as sometimes you are just unlucky the bullet pops up from nowhere.

    Over 400 ping is just ridiculous. At this point it is almost impossible to hit people, and almost impossible to predict where their bullets will pop up from. Sadly there are quite a few people in TW who happily admit their lag falls in this range.


    2. The Bigger Picture
    ---------------------
    So how does this all figure? From the point of view of the lagger, everyone on their screen is lagged. The lagger will admittedly have a very hard time getting kills because everyone will absorb their "hits" and everyone will jump. But most people fail to remember one thing. If you lag, you're used to EVERYTHING on your screen lagging. When absolutely everything lags, you play in a very different style than when you have a good connection. You play safer, you're used to "shooting ahead" and you don't charge as much knowing that you probably won't hit. Also if you know what you're doing, you will probably want your enemy to come to you. It's much easier to hit someone who's rushing at you, and you hope they forget you're lagging. Finally because everyone is lagging it's quite hard to get mad at any particular individual in lagging your bullets.

    So how about the people trying to kill you? From their point of view, you are hoping all over. Everyone else on their screen is stable, but you're majorly hopping. From their point of view, your bullets pop out of thin air, and you are impossible to hit. Meanwhile everyone else on their screen is shooting them too (while they avoid your laggy ass). If the lagger decides to fight you and chase you around, you will have no choice but fight. You can avoid them alright if you are good, and you place a few well aimed shots right at them. They don't die. Suddenly someone off screen comes in and vulches your 0 energy ass.

    And remember, the more power you have in this zone, the more able you are to avoid the regular lag restrictions because your smod/sysop powers lets you stay in no matter what.


    3. Leagues
    ----------
    Now let's stick this information in a league setting. First let's start with wb/jav league. It's a 5on5 game. There's a lagger on one team who eats everything. You know he's there, but when you see him on radar he looks the same as everyone else. This guy comes in and attacks you. Your team shoots and hits him. He does NOT die. Then your team has no energy, and is easily picked off by the laggers teammates.

    Okay so you think you're smarter than that. You intentionally don't shoot the lagger, knowing that your energy is better saved fighting his teammates, a reasonable strategy. Bullets whiz by from the lagger non-stop. He's pounding you with bullets that you have to dodge while you're fighting his teammates. You can't kill him, but he can make you dodge and run into his teammates bullets (the teammate you're dueling). See the problem? Once in a while his bullets will connect with you too, and you die. And what if you separate him and chase him outnumbered? Anyone who's played enough leagues can tell you that chasing a lagger is a dangerous thing. But the thing is, if you stop chasing him, he'll just keep vulching you. What do you do?

    How about the basing league game? This is even worse if the player is a vital ship like a terrier, jav or shark. If they lag bad, this means they ignore your bullets. They enter the upper base seemingly easily because you're shooting your bombs/bullets at where you see him, but not where he really is (thanks to lag). This lagger gets in base. You have a problem. If they are jav, they can randomly shoot and probably kill you just because of bomb prox. So you MUST kill him. Your whole team shoots at him. Nothing. He picks off your teammates with some prox bombs. Then his teammates come and finish your depeleted team off. What if the lagger was a terrier? Well even worse, cause now you have an invincible terrier!

    As I have described, in the league game the effects of lag are compounded. No longer is your lag just affecting directly the person you're fighting, your lag is affecting the entire opposite team. They have to play "around" you hoping you die sometimes, but really hoping you don't do too much damage because you're unkillable. Meanwhile you might not have the best personal score for the game because you have a hard time hitting people too. But the effect is there. Your lag "advantage" has helped your team win.


    4. Conclusion
    -------------
    So what does this all mean? Basically it's fair to assume that thanks to bad ISPs and North American connections that there will be people who have >400 ave ping and many with over 350. It would be against the spirit of Trench Wars to not let these people play in the pubs, and some would argue it's okay for them to play in elim (unless you're the type that wants to get a good ranking in elim). But it's completely wrong and completely unfair to let these people play in league. Why should the rest of the League be subjected to your lag advantage that you bring for your team? Why should ANY team be entitled to a lag advantage in the first place? The answer is they shouldn't. Extreme lag ruins the fun and competition of league games, and has no place.

    There should be a strict lag setting for league arenas. There already is a tougher setting for elim, extend this to league but with an even tougher setting. No one with >400 ping should be allowed to play, period. I would suggest that >350 is too much, although that would probably marginalize TOO many players, so 400 would be a good number.


    -Epinephrine
    Epinephrine's History of Trench Wars:
    www.geocities.com/epinephrine.rm

    My anime blog:
    www.animeslice.com

  • #2
    I agree with some of this. Some things though, half of a laggers shots aren't even SEEN on the screen, the server just ignores them like they didn't even shoot. THAT is a horrable disadvantage, rendering you useless, like a rag doll with no energy. Also, if you miss a lagger you usually kill them, so it really isn't that bad, since missing someone is alot more common then hitting someone in TW. I have never seen 1 player fly into a group of 5 warbirds, have them all shoot, and the lagger not die. Well, at least against good squads If you're a good SS player, killing a lagger isn't a big deal, in fact, it's quite easy.

    As the saying goes:

    "If you're really that good, you understand where to shoot at for a laggy player."

    If you've ever seen me play, you'll notice I like to joke around alot, and sometimes I get annoyed at stuff. But I never directly complain about hitting someone and am serious, ever. I know that "hitting" someone isn't really legitimate, because on their screen they were not hit by the bullet. Therfor, saying "hit" is just a plain flat out lie. The reason so many people say it? 'Cause they see a hit on their screen. Did they really hit them on the receiving end client? No.

    Some suggestions:

    1. Someone or some people try to get a get a Server in America--I know I would be willing to help with it, this would work in association with the finny server.

    2. Put some lag caps in TWL. Although I don't like the idea of taking someone's right to play Leagues and have fun because of their lag, this is the only way to do it fairly. --Don't put it TOO low of ping level--. In other words.. 400 ping cap would be reasonable. 350 is sorta pushing it too hard, that would eliminate lots'a players.

    3. MOTHERF'ERS, GET A BETTER CONNECTION ALREADY

    That's all, gotta get up early for workie t'mmorrow
    I fucking own you in the warbird, shut the fuck up.

    Comment


    • #3
      Flawed.

      Well good try, but personally half the stuff you said doesn't even correlate with what I C and you fail to mention the many disadvantages to lagging while focusing on those that could be seen as a benefit to a lagger.

      The fact of the matter is in this game, any lag numbers above 150 will qualify you as a "lagger".
      Personal opionion. I had the great priveledge to play on a T1 through the school year with 220-250 ave ping. I don't believe once in the 1000+ hours I played during the year was I called a lagger.

      At around 300 ping, you start seeing very visible jumps. Basically everytime a person uses thrust to move, the SS prediction code will make it look like they moved further than they really did, then "warp" them backwards as their lag catches up with the server.
      Once again incorrect. I play with 440ms ave ping now. No one jumps on my screen ever expect for a slight few exceptions (maybe 1 or 2 I notice a day.) I've also played on a few friends under different ISPs with similar ping and ploss, same thing.

      Also at the 300 ping range (270-320), it's safe to say that 1/2 the time you hit that person (no matter what your ping) it's not going to kill them
      Also untrue. I do not lead shots and my shots kill probably 75% of the time, depends on the arena.

      More than 1/2 the time you hit them (if you manage to actually hit their jumpy ships) they will definately not die.
      It continues, I've never even on my good connection met a player that didn't die at least 75% of the time.

      Finally their bullets will appear an inch from their ship making it very hard to dodge them as this one inch can be either one inch in front, or at times the bullet will pop out one inch BEHIND them.
      The is dependent on the other users connection and the thrust involved in the shot. It is not entirely dependant on the "laggy" players lag. The doesn't really apply. Anyone can see from nearly anyone else this anomoly at some time or another.

      For them to hit you most of the time has nothing to do with skill, as sometimes you are just unlucky the bullet pops up from nowhere.
      Whatever, many people can play against lagger or not lagger and really not have any difference while on the other hand a play can lag or not lag and still play at relatively the same level.

      Over 400 ping is just ridiculous. At this point it is almost impossible to hit people, and almost impossible to predict where their bullets will pop up from. Sadly there are quite a few people in TW who happily admit their lag falls in this range.
      Don't know why anyone would be happy with 400+ ping. It isn't ridiculous. The client does a very good job interpreting where a player should be for all userse and usually hits kill for any player regardless of lag unless it is nearing 1 second.

      From the point of view of the lagger, everyone on their screen is lagged.
      What kind of experience have you had as a lagger? No one looks lagged to me ever except in TWLB and only when everyone is in the flagroom.

      The lagger will admittedly have a very hard time getting kills because everyone will absorb their "hits" and everyone will jump.
      True with 9+ people in the flagroom.

      If you lag, you're used to EVERYTHING on your screen lagging.
      Give me a break, if so then why aren't laggers always doing phenominal in every game they play. That is a very untrue statement. As I said before nothing lags on my screen and I"m sure I'm not the only one.

      You play safer, you're used to "shooting ahead" and you don't charge as much knowing that you probably won't hit.
      Speak for yourself. Many laggers use their lag to rush, many stay back, many don't play different at all. Shooting ahead? I'm not aware of doing that, occasional when I overshoot it will pay off, sometimes when I undershoot it will pay off.

      Also if you know what you're doing, you will probably want your enemy to come to you. It's much easier to hit someone who's rushing at you, and you hope they forget you're lagging. Finally because everyone is lagging it's quite hard to get mad at any particular individual in lagging your bullets.
      I generally moved towards my target without lag and without lag. Prefering for an enemy to come to you is personal preference it isn't something that goes with having a slightly laggy connection. I think it is easier to rush someone then have them rush at you, my personal preference. Did you forget to mention how easy it is for everyone else in the zone to get mad at a laggy player?

      QUOTE]From their point of view, you are hoping all over.[/QUOTE]

      I don't see it with lag or without, dependant on the other persons connection not the laggers most generally.

      And remember, the more power you have in this zone, the more able you are to avoid the regular lag restrictions because your smod/sysop powers lets you stay in no matter what.
      I'm sincerely intersted in finding the information on such stuff as this. But I'm pretty sure no one plays league with any access above MOD so this statement is irrelevent. I personally haven't noticed being logged in as smod as a benefit.

      First let's start with wb/jav league.
      As I find almost every statement here directly opposed to what I view I don't really wanna comment on each line of this cause it is absurd. There is generally not a lagger on each team, and generally if so this lagger does not even lag in a 5v5 match or lags enough to really influence anything. In fact he is probably missing that 7% (or whatever) of shots that the enemy is missing. No big deal.

      Your team shoots and hits him. He does NOT die.
      Okay. Um how often does this happen? 1% of every hit on an individual?

      Then your team has no energy, and is easily picked off by the laggers teammates.
      Your team shouldn't be playing in a jav/wb league if their whole team shoots only at one player while ignoring the others that are apparently close enough to kill you. Bad example. Everything past on this is also irrelevent cause it simply hardly EVER occurs. Any good wb/jav team of 5 usually destroys teams that try to use 1 laggy player to their benefit.

      How about the basing league game? This is even worse if the player is a vital ship like a terrier, jav or shark. If they lag bad, this means they ignore your bullets.
      Even worse than? Than the example that doesn't occur? True often times you ignore bullets.

      They enter the upper base seemingly easily because you're shooting your bombs/bullets at where you see him, but not where he really is (thanks to lag). This lagger gets in base. You have a problem. If they are jav, they can randomly shoot and probably kill you just because of bomb prox.
      And this is where it goes off track again. True to the fact that getting in base is simplified while lagging. Untrue to the fact that that player can randomly shoot and probably kill someone. As many shots aren't hitting him as his aren't hitting them. Goes hand it hand, really no benefit.

      So you MUST kill him. Your whole team shoots at him. Nothing.
      Whole team? Lol, bad mistake on their part. Do they wonder why he hasn't killed anyone for the 30 seconds he's been inside? Does anyone even think that person may be actually be getting hit and maybe he can't shoot cause he is so low on energy? Maybe this person is occasionly dodging. I'll give you it is some small benefit as it distracts 1-3 players. 1 or 2 is assumed regardless when someone in flagroom.

      He picks off your teammates with some prox bombs. Then his teammates come and finish your depeleted team off. What if the lagger was a terrier? Well even worse, cause now you have an invincible terrier!
      Um, no he can't kill anyone. Maybe occasionly but he is dead by then. And from experience I can say that it only happens very generally that it actually helps his team to get in. Also most terriers are basically invincible anyways with their speed.

      As I have described, in the league game the effects of lag are compounded. No longer is your lag just affecting directly the person you're fighting, your lag is affecting the entire opposite team. They have to play "around" you hoping you die sometimes, but really hoping you don't do too much damage because you're unkillable. Meanwhile you might not have the best personal score for the game because you have a hard time hitting people too. But the effect is there. Your lag "advantage" has helped your team win.
      The lagger is also a detriment to his/her team as he can not effectively play his role in killing the enemy or providing certain well placed shots/coverage. Also if you are unkillable why do laggers have such mediocre "killable" scores. Also did it ever occur to you (once again I speak from experience) that a lagged jav can't kill the terrier as often as he should be doing cause in a flagroom with numerous people IT IS actually showing affects of lag for once?

      But it's completely wrong and completely unfair to let these people play in league.
      Hardly see why. They generally have VERY little affect on wb/jav leagues in TW and although many see it as an advantage in base they always conviently forget how the style of play changes when that person isn't lagging and his shots are true regardless of the their shots at him.

      No one with >400 ping should be allowed to play, period.
      Speak for yourself, I don't think that is fair. Basically no one in rural places could ever play then.... Sigh....
      TWLB Champion Season 1 (Light)
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      1 of the first 2 to get all 3. (Fireballz is other)

      Comment


      • #4
        Accidently hit enter early and I went over the 10000 char limit when editing.

        I respect your opinion Epi, generally it is one I agree with, but in this instance I think you are straying off into realms that you do not know fully about (nor do I) but I what I know strongly condtradicts nearly every statement in your post and really makes a lagger out to have extreme benefit. Most people don't lag and this fits nicely for what they'd like to believe so they don't even care to know about the otherside. Lag is not all that.
        TWLB Champion Season 1 (Light)
        TWLD Champion Season 6/7 (Elusive/Syndicate)
        TWLJ Champion Season 7 (Syndicate)

        1 of the first 2 to get all 3. (Fireballz is other)

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: On the issue of lag: The real story

          Originally posted by Epinephrine


          And remember, the more power you have in this zone, the more able you are to avoid the regular lag restrictions because your smod/sysop powers lets you stay in no matter what.

          How about the basing league game? If they lag bad, this means they ignore your bullets. They enter the upper base seemingly easily because you're shooting your bombs/bullets at where you see him, but not where he really is (thanks to lag). This lagger gets in base. You have a problem. If they are jav, they can randomly shoot and probably kill you just because of bomb prox. So you MUST kill him. Your whole team shoots at him. Nothing. He picks off your teammates with some prox bombs. Then his teammates come and finish your depeleted team off.

          As I have described, in the league game the effects of lag are compounded. No longer is your lag just affecting directly the person you're fighting, your lag is affecting the entire opposite team. They have to play "around" you hoping you die sometimes, but really hoping you don't do too much damage because you're unkillable. Meanwhile you might not have the best personal score for the game because you have a hard time hitting people too. But the effect is there. Your lag "advantage" has helped your team win.

          Extreme lag ruins the fun and competition of league games, and has no place.

          -Epinephrine
          I think you need to read this, 2dragons. Over and over.

          Good post, Epi.
          PLEASE, DON'T BE MISGUIDED...YA BITIN'. AND I'MA HAVE TA DIS YA, UNDERSTAND MISTA?

          Comment


          • #6
            Well posted, Epi. I agree with your hate.
            I've had a lot of time to play against laggy players and invent tactics on how to play against them, but you can never fully counter someone's lag. I've actually started some downloads in hoping to get some lag and try it out, I wasn't doing that good, but ok still. I felt that I could surprise people more and my far shots killed more often.
            As I always say: "Duel against a newbie? 10-0.. duel against a laggy newbie on the same skill level? Propably about 10-3"
            jee

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Flawed.

              Originally posted by 2dragons
              Well good try, but personally half the stuff you said doesn't even correlate with what I C and you fail to mention the many disadvantages to lagging while focusing on those that could be seen as a benefit to a lagger.

              Personal opionion. I had the great priveledge to play on a T1 through the school year with 220-250 ave ping. I don't believe once in the 1000+ hours I played during the year was I called a lagger.

              Once again incorrect. I play with 440ms ave ping now. No one jumps on my screen ever expect for a slight few exceptions (maybe 1 or 2 I notice a day.) I've also played on a few friends under different ISPs with similar ping and ploss, same thing.

              Also untrue. I do not lead shots and my shots kill probably 75% of the time, depends on the arena.

              It continues, I've never even on my good connection met a player that didn't die at least 75% of the time.

              Don't know why anyone would be happy with 400+ ping. It isn't ridiculous. The client does a very good job interpreting where a player should be for all userse and usually hits kill for any player regardless of lag unless it is nearing 1 second.

              What kind of experience have you had as a lagger? No one looks lagged to me ever except in TWLB and only when everyone is in the flagroom.

              Give me a break, if so then why aren't laggers always doing phenominal in every game they play. That is a very untrue statement. As I said before nothing lags on my screen and I"m sure I'm not the only one.

              Speak for yourself. Many laggers use their lag to rush, many stay back, many don't play different at all. Shooting ahead? I'm not aware of doing that, occasional when I overshoot it will pay off, sometimes when I undershoot it will pay off.

              I generally moved towards my target without lag and without lag. Prefering for an enemy to come to you is personal preference it isn't something that goes with having a slightly laggy connection. I think it is easier to rush someone then have them rush at you, my personal preference. Did you forget to mention how easy it is for everyone else in the zone to get mad at a laggy player?

              From their point of view, you are hopping all over.

              I don't see it with lag or without, dependant on the other persons connection not the laggers most generally.

              I'm sincerely intersted in finding the information on such stuff as this. But I'm pretty sure no one plays league with any access above MOD so this statement is irrelevent. I personally haven't noticed being logged in as smod as a benefit.

              As I find almost every statement here directly opposed to what I view I don't really wanna comment on each line of this cause it is absurd. There is generally not a lagger on each team, and generally if so this lagger does not even lag in a 5v5 match or lags enough to really influence anything. In fact he is probably missing that 7% (or whatever) of shots that the enemy is missing. No big deal.


              Okay. Um how often does this happen? 1% of every hit on an individual?

              Your team shouldn't be playing in a jav/wb league if their whole team shoots only at one player while ignoring the others that are apparently close enough to kill you. Bad example. Everything past on this is also irrelevent cause it simply hardly EVER occurs. Any good wb/jav team of 5 usually destroys teams that try to use 1 laggy player to their benefit.



              Even worse than? Than the example that doesn't occur? True often times you ignore bullets.



              And this is where it goes off track again. True to the fact that getting in base is simplified while lagging. Untrue to the fact that that player can randomly shoot and probably kill someone. As many shots aren't hitting him as his aren't hitting them. Goes hand it hand, really no benefit.



              Whole team? Lol, bad mistake on their part. Do they wonder why he hasn't killed anyone for the 30 seconds he's been inside? Does anyone even think that person may be actually be getting hit and maybe he can't shoot cause he is so low on energy? Maybe this person is occasionly dodging. I'll give you it is some small benefit as it distracts 1-3 players. 1 or 2 is assumed regardless when someone in flagroom.



              Um, no he can't kill anyone. Maybe occasionly but he is dead by then. And from experience I can say that it only happens very generally that it actually helps his team to get in. Also most terriers are basically invincible anyways with their speed.



              The lagger is also a detriment to his/her team as he can not effectively play his role in killing the enemy or providing certain well placed shots/coverage. Also if you are unkillable why do laggers have such mediocre "killable" scores. Also did it ever occur to you (once again I speak from experience) that a lagged jav can't kill the terrier as often as he should be doing cause in a flagroom with numerous people IT IS actually showing affects of lag for once?



              Hardly see why. They generally have VERY little affect on wb/jav leagues in TW and although many see it as an advantage in base they always conviently forget how the style of play changes when that person isn't lagging and his shots are true regardless of the their shots at him.



              Speak for yourself, I don't think that is fair. Basically no one in rural places could ever play then.... Sigh....
              - For every shot you make only 33% (-33%) actually hit.
              - Did I mention that you have to totally change your playing style to aim ahead?
              - People regard you differently and accuse you of things you can't help.
              - For you a lot of time people will jump on your screen.
              - Often times you'll lag out during a crucial moment in a game or in elim.
              - Sometimes you'll even lag out of the zone, heck you might even have to restart.
              - Oh yeah, people regard you differently and accuse you of things you can't help.
              - Ahhh you lag, well with these new lag restrictions, guess what! You can't play!
              - Takes you a lot longer to do server commands (host commands, ?help, ?find, ?go, etc..)
              - Did I mention people start not to like you or regard you differently and accuse you of things you can't help?

              Now I want you to look those over(since 2dragons wrote those in his article), or is it just me and do the numbers just change a lot? :X

              EDIT: I removed some quote thingies, but then thought it too much trouble :P
              Last edited by Azhran; 07-17-2002, 05:27 AM.
              TelCat> there arent 'sort of' get the flag

              Comment


              • #8
                There is a thread regarding lag in elim in TW Staff section of these forums which is pretty successfully ignored by staff members. So i may as well repeat the parts that address lag directly here:

                Lag gives a pilot a number of advantages which he can learn to use, and they are extremely hard to counter:

                With 400+ ping, everything is moving smoothly on the lagging players screen, its on the screens of other players he jumps. While he can adjust his aim a bit ahead of other ships, aiming at him is hardly possible as he moves with frequent jumps.

                Also, there is a pretty high chance that a bullet which hits him on your screen wont kill him. Talk about psychological effects.

                The lagging players bullets can be next to invisible, or in the least they'll appear on other players screens with the delay enough to make dodging alot harder. You may have to sacrifice some of your playing style in an attempt to counter this one.

                Lag increase can be controlled at will, and i am fairly sure that some players are doing it. As i mentioned in the elim lag thread, i had the chance to see this for myself.

                ...I am not sure if it's appropriate to post the method that can be used to cheat on forum board, but if staff will want to test how lag affects game, no problems with it.

                Whether the lag appears in a natural or artificially increased form, it greatly disturbs the balance in the game. A ping restriction of <300-<350 is a must for arenas similar to leagues or elim.

                1:Eeks> well that bichix was trying to start conversation with me today
                1:Eeks> and got excited when i said i wanna go drink today =/
                1:Eeks> but i didn't propose anything
                1:Zloy> Why
                1:Eeks> i didn't have anything to fill that box zloy

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                • #9
                  epi when was the last time you played a base match .

                  <3
                  There once was a man from Nantucket.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Just to respond to 2Dragons and Ruby:

                    I think you misinterpreted what I said in the first section. I was talking about what the lagger looks like to EVEVERYONE else, not what is seen on the lagger's screen (except for the one sentence about where everyone looks lagged on the lagger's screen).

                    I think almost everyone he can universally agree to the fact that if you lag, you hop. If you lag, on everyone else's screen, everytime you thrust and stop thrusting, your ship will keep on moving for a bit and then you'll "warp back" to where you actually stopped. This creates a huge amount of havoc for the playing trying to kill you. They will "aim ahead" of you, then suddenly you appear 2 inches behind where they aimed, and you kill them easily.

                    Also because of the lag, you will see a LOT of "random" shots. When you lag, your bullets don't appear until they're a certain amount away from your ship. It's common sense. If you have 350 ping, and say I have 150 ping, it will take 1/2 a second for the bullet packet to transmit. Because SS is smart about that, that means the bullet is 1/2 a second away from your ship when I see it. This means I have 1/2 a second less to dodge, and thanks to the fact that you really only have at most 1 second to dodge anyway the bullet becomes almost impossble to dodge. It has nothing to do with skill and everything to do with random lag.

                    I have to admit the prediction code is pretty good. If you lag things look much more smoothly on your own screen than on other people's screens. (although after a certain point everything is very laggy) For example I have the same ISP as certain TW players and at times I lag myself (~290 ave ping). For me everyone would look great, except for this one guy with my ISP who'd be hopping all over. Everyone would be calling me and him a lagger and I would think "wait it's not lagging on my screen just this one guy". But then I realize if that's what he looks to me, that's how I look to everyone else. Get it? This has been tested too by using 2 computers to do experiments.

                    About the lagger being adjusted. Yes if you lag you adjust yourself so that you play differently. If you don't lag you play in yet ANOTHER way. To simply say that "if you're good you should be able to kill the lagger" is complete bullshit. If the lagger is a good player as well and knows how to use their lag, you're dead.

                    I also think I forgot to mention something but which you have completely forgotten. Whenever you hit someone DEAD on who's right in front of you, you expect them dead. So you line up for the shot and put yourself in a bad position because you know you will get the kill. You hit the lagger completely dead on, the lagger doesn't die because in fact you weren't aiming for him at all. You were actually aiming where the prediction code in SS thought he was, but really on his screen you completely missed. Now you're a sitting duck. Think this happens rarely? I doubt it.

                    And Ruby you saying you've never seen a player tank through 5 players with lag? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH okay dude I dont know what planet you're from.

                    Whole team? Lol, bad mistake on their part. Do they wonder why he hasn't killed anyone for the 30 seconds he's been inside? Does anyone even think that person may be actually be getting hit and maybe he can't shoot cause he is so low on energy? Maybe this person is occasionly dodging. I'll give you it is some small benefit as it distracts 1-3 players. 1 or 2 is assumed regardless when someone in flagroom.
                    Yes whole team. In all three leagues if there's a lone player that comes to your team's radius they will shoot. It's everyone's natural instinct in TW to shoot at people who are close by. It's also very natural if you don't die to keep trying. If you lag, chances are it will take much longer to kill you simply because they are aiming where you are not. So you distract a lot of people on a team. If they ignore you, you are a threat. It's a catch22.

                    Other leagues in Subspace have had lag limits since they've started. In SVS leagues where the lag might only mean the difference of 2-3 bullets (when it takes at least 10 bullets to kill you) the lag limits are the strictest by far. In Trench Wars leagues where it only takes ONE bullet to kill you, and generally 3-4 seconds to recharge between shooting, that ONE bullet can mean the difference between living and dying. If you get an advantage by being a lagger, it's complete BS.

                    About leagues. I have fully admitted that the lagger will have a very hard time getting a good score. BUT there are HUGE team and psychological effects about it. An unkillable player who shoots bullets/bombs that come out of NOWHERE (1 inch from his ship) is a huge advantage for a team. It screws up the other team by letting the laggers teammates get easy kills as I have already described.

                    Am I just focusing on you 2dragons? No. I'm talking about all laggers. I'm talking about the people who have admitted secretly that they cheat to get their lag up using whatever methods. I'm talking about how bad lag in general is BAD for the league environment.

                    -Epi
                    Last edited by Epinephrine; 07-17-2002, 11:04 AM.
                    Epinephrine's History of Trench Wars:
                    www.geocities.com/epinephrine.rm

                    My anime blog:
                    www.animeslice.com

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                    • #11
                      Re: Re: On the issue of lag: The real story

                      Originally posted by Pearl Jam


                      I think you need to read this, 2dragons. Over and over.

                      Good post, Epi.
                      christ, pj you were one of the biggest laggers in the base game we played, i saw your ping go from 220 - 800 in a rocket instant

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                      • #12
                        Did he lag out 15+ (I've heard as high as 22) times, though?
                        Music and medicine, I'm living in a place where they overlap.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by ConcreteSchlyrd
                          Did he lag out 15+ (I've heard as high as 22) times, though?
                          still a lagger that can actually stay in the game is more deadly

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                          • #14
                            That is unsubstantiated.
                            Music and medicine, I'm living in a place where they overlap.

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                            • #15
                              Epinephrine

                              hey Epi, I bet you were the type that, in high school, when the teacher asked you for 200 words you'd give in 1000

                              am I right?

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