Elim 2.0 Discussion

[RiiStar]

What I mean is, if it's your first game (you have no stats/rating to your name) and someone kills you, you count as a 300 rating when it comes to their average.

Before Milosh changed the Elim pages on tw.org, we had a page with a
full explaination of the rating system etc...

Is it still there somewhere milo?

[milosh]

It said the exact same thing that this page does: http://web.archive.org/web/200210071...m/erating.html

[MaGi kOz]

This sounds good.



This is no good.

Player A: plays 50 games, wins 25 with a 2:1 ratio and a 300 ave. they'll have a 600 rating plus the rating they get from wins - the rating they lose in loses. So that's minus 25 for loses and plus say 350 (if the average is 15 players per game.) So they'll have 950 rating.

Player B: player hides for wins a lot, has a 1:1 ratio with a 300 average but wins 50 out of 100 games. With an average of 15 players per game they'll have 300 - 50 + 700 = 950.

So a player with a 2:1 ratio has the same rating as one with a 1:1 ratio simply because the 1:1 ratio player hid for wins and played more. Basically it just rewards players who play the most, and actual skill means very little (but hiding for wins gets rewarded big time.)

That argument is flawed. Sorta doesn't make sense.
Can you factor in the rating change of the games he did not lose cause the player doesn't only lose 1 rating point but it changes +/-. And you can't say player B hides a lot if he [averages] a 1:1 ratio. Also forgetting the fact that player B has played more than Player A, you can figure if they both played the same amount of games, Player A will be on top tremendously. It doesn't sound right to compare where their ratings meet because someone playing one game, gets 20-5 and can have a rating of somewhere near the top 10.

Hiding IS a problem and I believe if this problem is solved, then everything else will fall in place.

Players who win should get the rewards based on their ratio along with the amount of players in arena. There are certain things you should expect from a winner, especially if there are 20 people participating (With 20 people playing, there are a possible 200 kills to obtain.) Maybe you can say that if there is anyone who wins an elim with 9-9 or less (or if the game is to 5, then it should be 5-5 or less), should be penalized for winning instead. You can also say that the more kills you get, the better the reward. The following is going to be complicated, especially when it comes to the code work, so that's why I'm only presenting this as a draft or a launch pad for something better.

Say 10-9 is the zero factor. You get no reward for winning with such a rec. The example below is brought at a 20 player game with a possible of 200 kills. For every gain in player should be a point increase and for every player lost should be point decrease.

0-0 > -10
8-5 > -3
8-9 > -3
9-0 > -2
9-8 > -2
9-9 > -1
10-9 > 0
11-9 > +1
11-0 > +10
20-9 > +10
20-8 > +11
21-9 > +11
22-9 > +12
22-8 > +13
23-7 > +15

If 11-0 brings +10 in a 20 player game. It'll bring +20 in a 30 player game.
If 11-0 brings +10 in a 20 player game. It'll bring +9 in a 19 player game.
If 11-0 brings +10 in a 20 player game. It'll bring 0 in a 3 player game.
If 9-0 brings -2 in a 20 player game. It'll bring +8 in a 30 player game.

So basically, if there is lesser than 10 players in a game, there will be no rewards for winning due to the fact that it'll be easier to hide, even when you're not trying to. If there are a large amount of players in a game, you become more likely to achieve a reward for getting lesser than 10-9 due to the fact that there was more players in the game.

Could also cover for people who have horrible aim, but get lucky enough to win with 8-9. There's no need to reward luck.
There are certain aspects in an elim that you can also factor in. All those factors should be looked at. This might help you guys think it out a bit.

[MaGi kOz]

Oh. A few things to point out.

- If the two boxes in elim are here to stay, shouldn't you spawn in the center safe, because it's safe, and then be transfered accordingly? Would be aweful to spawn on a bullet in the top box and take longer to finally get back into the bottom box.

- Elim box should have three stages instead of the two. One for a small amount of people. One for a medium amount of people. And the last for a large amount of people. Seriously, all that space isn't needed for only 5 people playing.

- Might as well make separate special boxes for the other ships like the spider and the levi, too. The league's SpiderDuel arena should be used as an example.

- And those who're casually playing in top box should be de-greened anti-warp.






GOOOOOOO MILOSH!

[Lofty]

I don't get this zero factor. Are you telling me its set up a certain way that as long as you get something like ....11-9 you will ALWAYS get some more rating, or not lose any at least? Even at like 800 rating?

Because if thats true..that is some really broken shit lol. The way the ranking used to be, the higher up you are the harder it is to maintain your rank. Past 650 rating or so, getting even a 2:1 ratio lost you rank.

[MaGi kOz]

I don't get this zero factor. Are you telling me its set up a certain way that as long as you get something like ....11-9 you will ALWAYS get some more rating, or not lose any at least? Even at like 800 rating?

Because if thats true..that is some really broken shit lol. The way the ranking used to be, the higher up you are the harder it is to maintain your rank. Past 650 rating or so, getting even a 2:1 ratio lost you rank.

I'm talking about rewards for winning. I'm trying to define a hider by his record and define a winner the same way and rewarding him accordingly.

If anything, the rating system is fine the way it was. Like some people say, though, it needs tweaks here and there.

[Lofty]

Yeah it's just that I heard this 'zero factor' thing before, and I was seeing if that's what it meant.

[Zeebu]

current rating system while doing what metalkid said

if you spec mid game: dont count if it improves your score, let it count if it doesnt help

[milosh]

current rating system while doing what metalkid said

if you spec mid game: dont count if it improves your score, let it count if it doesnt help

I agree with this.

[Xp.]

Please don't use ?go warbirds as the non-competitive area of the elim map. I'd recommend just cutting and pasting in the entire ?go dm2 map. You can't have warbirds spawning in safe zones. You just can't. It's awkward because you have to fly out of it on every single death. In every other warbird event you spawn in a random spot in a spawn area, don't change that.

Oh, and wasn't javelim to be the future of baseelim? I know it's not working now but are we planning on completely trashing it or restricting it to a weekend event?

aquatic using ?go warbirds will help distinguish the difference between the real elim and the practice elim, and y are u talking about spawning from a safe i doubt they will b doing that just because the map looks like that does not mean it cant b edited to do w.e. the general population would like..ohh and i just stopped by dm2 i think its the most boring arena i ever seen in my life...i think its about time we started giving the warbirds some basing action YAYYYYYYY:groovy:

[Xp.]

hmmm and since we are also on the subject of elim would it b possible for players to choose wether or not they would like the game they are ABOUT to play be ranked or not....this will allow players a chance to do a warm up elim b4 they can actually get ranked....the bot will record rec to rank unless a player does !rankoff to bot before elim starts this wayy players do not have to get confused if the rank mode is on or off

[milosh]

hmmm and since we are also on the subject of elim would it b possible for players to choose wether or not they would like the game they are ABOUT to play be ranked or not....this will allow players a chance to do a warm up elim b4 they can actually get ranked....the bot will record rec to rank unless a player does !rankoff to bot before elim starts this wayy players do not have to get confused if the rank mode is on or off

I frown upon this idea. The casual arena should serve that purpose.

[Xp.]

I frown upon this idea. The casual arena should serve that purpose.

uhmm i didnt read the hole forum but i thought the original idea was to convert .?go warbirds to the casual arena and i have tried the current casual arena out, that would do nothing at all to help warm up ppl are just floating around suiciding each other since it dont count

[milosh]

Oh. A few things to point out.

- If the two boxes in elim are here to stay, shouldn't you spawn in the center safe, because it's safe, and then be transfered accordingly? Would be aweful to spawn on a bullet in the top box and take longer to finally get back into the bottom box.

If you are enabled to play elim you are automatically transferred there when you enter, so that shouldn't be a problem.

- Elim box should have three stages instead of the two. One for a small amount of people. One for a medium amount of people. And the last for a large amount of people. Seriously, all that space isn't needed for only 5 people playing.

I was thinking the same thing.

- Might as well make separate special boxes for the other ships like the spider and the levi, too. The league's SpiderDuel arena should be used as an example.

This could be interesting. I dunno about levi, but it might be cool to have the TWSD base in there for spider elims. I'll consider it.

- And those who're casually playing in top box should be de-greened anti-warp.

Why?

[Sirius]

I hope by current rating system you mean the 'original' rating system

[milosh]

Yes, sorry for the ambiguity.

[crazi]

PLEASE TAKE OUT

!lagout

OR PUT LIKE A 60 SECOND LIMIT, 1 LAG OUT MAX.

[Foreign]

After the first day of testing I've had a lot of negative feedback about the new rating system. I'm trying to hear both sides of the argument, so I feel that perhaps the best solution is using the old rating calculation but adding a few extra features to it, such as a bonus for winning and a voided rating change for speccing before the game is over. Please give some feedback on this... I'd really rather hear from you before I code a bunch and test it in-game.

maybe i'm late to the forum party, but this is what i really think you ought to do. if you do factor in wins, it shouldn't be a flat point increase because that will surely bork the system. i'll write more when i have time to think about this.

[MetalKid]

I think the standard 3 lagouts - 1 minute in between should work fine. Same as TWD/TWL/Tourny.

Yes, I agree the casual part of the arena should be used. If you are playing elim, ranks have to count because everyone playing gets impacted.

[milosh]

Recent updates:

• Changes to !lagout
  - Maximum 2 lagouts. Must wait 30 seconds to return. Must return within 60 seconds.(A 30 second window)
• The !who command
  - Displays all players currently in the game.
• Rating calculation change
  - Reverted to old PriitK formula. If you spec for rec and it helps your rating its voided, otherwise it counts.
• Double kills, etc.
  - If you kill again within 5 seconds you get a double, triple, etc. kill.
• Added anti-spawn functionality
  - If you are killed within 2 seconds of spawning it doesn't count.
• Zoner spam abuse
  - Some players were abusing the zoner by speccing and re-entering. Fixed that.
• Other stuff not worth mentioning