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Thread: Save What's Left, Modify The Zone: TW General Arena

  1. #1
    Registered User Pressure's Avatar
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    Save What's Left, Modify The Zone: TW General Arena

    I was going to post this in one of the numerous staff complaint threads, but my posts as of late haven't been replied to so I figured I'd get more out of making a thread. This is the post:

    I think staff needs to care less about player opinions, focus less on responding to negative reviews/opinions on forums, and focus more on utilizing suggestions from the players who have good input. Coming on forums and posting about how bad it makes you feel that players say what they say just weakens staff's image in my eyes. Years ago staff didn't give a fuck about forum raging, hate and getting flamed, they knew that what they were doing drove the zone and that's that. They didn't have to answer to anyone, let alone people who started playing like a month ago. Do parents apologize to their kids for grounding them when they've done wrong? Do bosses tell their employees that they're sorry they aren't getting their way and let them walk all over them? Nope. Grow a backbone and staff will, at the very least, appear more stable.

    Also, maybe it would be a good idea to stop posting threads so hastily without consulting the other uppers on staff. Threads boldly stating "Continuum is Officially Going On Steam" when we haven't even applied to be Green-Lit yet, or threads saying "Tough Decisions" that talk about shutting the servers down (without even consulting the people who've put 15 years into this game) just bring ideas into the picture that didn't need to be there in the first place. I think some people who are running staff are too new to the game to know how it actually should be ran (I know this is a problem that is rooted in the veterans' lack of interest in being on staff, but still). I also think some might be too emotional/impulsive to hold themselves back when they're provoked, or when there is an acute issue at hand. You guys shouldn't look to the players for solutions, there needs to be innovation in staff itself. If staff at the moment isn't working together to think of new ideas that could be implemented, then they are not only not doing their job, but are not suitable to be staff. I know nothing about politics in this zone, but it seems to me that right now staff is in a position where they just don't know how to move forward, and this notion is bleeding through what I always saw as an invisible wall between staff and players. I used to know nothing about the drama and what went on in staff, now I feel like I know about every little thing going on as soon as it happens. If staff thinks the zone is going to shit, players can make that decision for themselves, they don't have to be told by staff that things are falling apart. That will only turn people away faster.

    To be honest, I truly think that pub died once TWD became more popular and automated. The last time pub "mattered" to anyone was in like 2001 when Sweet Leaf and Relativity_17 were setting records and it (sort of) meant something to get 1,000,000 points. Now it is literally pointless, confusing, and probably drives players away rather than bringing them in. Nowadays, I imagine a new player enters pub, gets killed over and over in spawn (probably without even knowing about the basing aspect) and quits in 10 minutes. Or, he/she finds out about basing in pub, somehow learns to attach to a terr, and gets TK'd over and over by 40 javs on his team, and quits in 10 minutes.

    I think staff is wasting time by tending to pub requests/improvements, when they should be focused on fine-tuning how to get pubbers involved in the competition that TW has to offer. After all these years, is it the pub players who still saturate the zone and keep it active? Or is it the competitive players? Be real, if every pubber (those who don't play TWD) decided to quit, it really wouldn't effect the zone the same way that every TWD player quitting would. TWD, and the players who have drowned 20,000+ hours into SS, are the people keeping it alive. There are maybe 30-80 'pure-pubbers' who keep pub alive daily, and at least 200 players (some inactive, but still) who keep TWD alive. TWD players are more committed, have definitely logged more hours, and are the most addicted in comparison to all other types of players to the game. Clearly, this is something to be considered, as it seems that lately I've only seen staff asking for the opinions of, and receiving input from newer players who aren't as invested in TW as the veterans of the game. Do you really think all the competitive players still check forums? I'd be surprised if more than 30% of the active competitive players know what's going on on forums, seriously.

    This brings me to my next point: what is the point of pub in modern TW? I think staff needs to take a good look at what they currently have to work with, what they want to improve, and focus on just that. I think TW has a small pub population, and a below-average, but still substantial competitive population. In recent years, the integrity of TW leagues have fallen apart, competitive players are losing interest, and staff is worried about fucking protecting 4o's identity? Staff is worried about levi quantity in pub? Staff is worried about re-coding the lev ship-sets in pub? Do you really think this is the shit you should be focusing on? I don't mean to turn this into another staff-complaint thread, but let's get real: what is more important: a good TWL, or a good pub? If you think it's a good pub that is more important, you are part of the reason this zone is dying.

    Don't make the same mistake Extreme Games did. EG was actually popular 2-3 years ago. Yeah, it was on its last days, but definitely more popular than it is now (it was probably around where TW is right now). Instead of tending to the competitive players, who preferred 8v8 matches and competitive games over and over, EG staff decided that pub was too important to let die. So instead of hosting pick-up (8v8 competitive) games over and over for the competitive players, they would host a match, and then when it ended and the players wanted more, they'd say "play in pub instead, can't let pub die." So what happened? Those competitive players would log off, because there is no motivation for older players to care about pub, and pub would "survive" (idk, with 20 players playing?) A year or two later, EG is basically dead. Pub is clearly not what is keeping TW alive and until staff realizes this and focuses more on the leagues and keeping old players interested, then this game will die faster than it ever has. Yeah, TW was steadily dying up until a year or two ago, but Staff neglecting to really take the reigns with leagues and make sure they run smoothly is precisely the reason you've seen a much more dramatic decline over the last year and a half in TW population.

    Do you really think that it matters to a new player whether they enter TW and see pub, or a TWD match? To be completely honest, TWD looks better, the players are more passionate about it, the spectator chat is more interesting and engaged, and there's less laming (tk's, specials, this shit just ruins basing, period). Pub isn't "basing," as some pubbers believe it is. Pubbers only believe this because they have been shunned by, or don't understand the dynamics of TWD and the competitive aspects of this game.

    A parallel: Major League sports showcase their best teams, their best players, and their best competition. They don't showcase the lower-tier/farm teams, they don't showcase intramural sports on television. They showcase the best aspects of their game, the best players, the best competition, because this is what inspires people to play. It was only once I saw warportal go 81-0 in a TWL match that I decided to start playing competitively and aspire to play leagues in terr. Pub was just a fun thing to do when I was bored, I got serious once I watched TWL.

    As someone who started in 1999 as a pubber, I would hate to see such a great tradition end. Pub should not be killed, but it should absolutely be seen as less important by staff than improving leagues, integrated pubbers into the competition, and the competition itself.

    As I've said previously, I think the best solution to this would be to merge every single aspect of the zone (pub, wbduel, base, javduel, elim, duel) into one arena to create "TW General." That way, players entering the game are exposed to every type of game that TW has to offer (except events and TWD, which would be held in other arenas). Also, why spread the 100 players online across 20 arenas, when you can showcase all the players currently logged on in in one arena? If I was a new player, I'd rather see one arena thriving with 100 players and multiple games going on simultaneously, than those 100 players apparently be dispersed throughout the zone in private arenas that I don't even know about. Do you think a 30 person pub game is appealing to a new player when they can jump on XBox and play Call of Duty with 40,000 people? It's 2013, showcase all the players in one arena, we don't have the population to be so spread out.

    One last note, I also think new players should be auto-specced as they enter the zone, and only once they take a required 2-3 question quiz (administered by the pub bot, including questions like: "Where is the base located?" "What color is the flag when your team has control of it?" "What color are your teammates?" "What color are your enemies?") would they be able to enter to play. This will give them a chance to automatically spectate players, so they can see what is going on, and also allows them to earn their entry into the game, with some knowledge before they just get killed over and over and quit.

    Sorry for the wall of post, if you're a tl;dr you're dumb because I'm positive some of this can help the zone. Staff, if you don't think of some new ways to work with what we have, expect this game to be completely dead, TWD/TWL AND pub, within 3 years.

    Unless we get Green-Lit by Steam, then everything changes.
    4:Best> pressure was a terr for halloween 4:Best> guy had 4 dudes on him attached

    4:Siaxis> what time is it in zimbobwe para?

    4:Children> every morning i wake up, look in the mirror and thank god i'm not paradise

    4:Best> Mighty's forehead has wifi

    4:Mighty> u guys ever eat a ketchup sandwich?

    4:sphinx> mighty fought a raccoon in an alley for some bbq chips

    4:RaCka> so what if paradise is dressing up as a slim jim for halloween?

  2. #2
    Registered User Pressure's Avatar
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    I know I said a lot here, and I don't mean to step on toes, but it's hard sitting back and watching this game be destroyed from the inside-out. Also, whenever I open a thread on forums that is written by staff, I rarely read who it's written by. I admit, I usually group staff members together as a whole when I'm judging, or referring to staff. So please, to whomever it may concern, don't take offense to my comments on posting the Steam announcement (fiS), or Tough Decisions (Demo) threads or the 4o/LF/kthx stuff.
    4:Best> pressure was a terr for halloween 4:Best> guy had 4 dudes on him attached

    4:Siaxis> what time is it in zimbobwe para?

    4:Children> every morning i wake up, look in the mirror and thank god i'm not paradise

    4:Best> Mighty's forehead has wifi

    4:Mighty> u guys ever eat a ketchup sandwich?

    4:sphinx> mighty fought a raccoon in an alley for some bbq chips

    4:RaCka> so what if paradise is dressing up as a slim jim for halloween?

  3. #3
    anime master Turban's Avatar
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    u wot m8

  4. #4
    Registered User Pressure's Avatar
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    Oh, and it might be a good idea to finally merge all of SS into one zone. If staff listened to me and pursued this 3 years ago with EG, we could have had 150-200 new, but Continuum-savvy players in TW from EG. Instead, we waited 3 years, the zone is dying, EG is dead, and the remaining EG'ers looking for competition (~40 players) now play TW on occasion, but this pales in comparison to what a merge could have done years ago.
    4:Best> pressure was a terr for halloween 4:Best> guy had 4 dudes on him attached

    4:Siaxis> what time is it in zimbobwe para?

    4:Children> every morning i wake up, look in the mirror and thank god i'm not paradise

    4:Best> Mighty's forehead has wifi

    4:Mighty> u guys ever eat a ketchup sandwich?

    4:sphinx> mighty fought a raccoon in an alley for some bbq chips

    4:RaCka> so what if paradise is dressing up as a slim jim for halloween?

  5. #5
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    thix just repeating shit I already said, but wordy as fuck

    tldr:

    tw should be:
    wbduel/javduel/base
    twdd/twjd/twbd

  6. #6
    Registered User MegamanEXE's Avatar
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    1st, we can't really put all of the automated events in one arena because there just isn't enough room, period.

    2nd, pub is definitely more important than leagues at this point in time. We have basically survived on league players who always come back year after year to play. Barring a major, unforseen incident, TWD/TWL is still going to play because the vets who play it still care about it.

    On the other hand, pub is the face of the zone for new players, but we don't have any way to get new players actually playing. This is why I started helping with the tutorial and why I think the tutorial is top priority right now. We would have seen a definite and measurable increase in the number of players from Greenlight if we were capable of capturing the attention of new players in the first minute that they start playing. That is our major, inherent problem. It doesn't matter if the first thing they see is a pub basing game, or a TWD match with players of the highest skill, if they don't know how to get on a level where they can fight in the first place.

    Get the tutorial ready and running first, and test it out on new players so we can fine-tune it to what is most effective. I guarantee that things will change if we can get new players to stick and increase the playing population.

  7. #7
    Registered User Pressure's Avatar
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    Yeah, there's not enough room because as it stands there are 5-6 dueling arenas in pub that are pointless considering we have a ?go duel arena. Remove these 5-6 dueling arenas and replace them with base, javduel, wbduel, and station MatchBots in pub. Easy fix.
    4:Best> pressure was a terr for halloween 4:Best> guy had 4 dudes on him attached

    4:Siaxis> what time is it in zimbobwe para?

    4:Children> every morning i wake up, look in the mirror and thank god i'm not paradise

    4:Best> Mighty's forehead has wifi

    4:Mighty> u guys ever eat a ketchup sandwich?

    4:sphinx> mighty fought a raccoon in an alley for some bbq chips

    4:RaCka> so what if paradise is dressing up as a slim jim for halloween?

  8. #8
    Registered User Bosshawk's Avatar
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    i stay out of most threads simply because i dont want in on the drama and flaming....

    but this was a good post with some important information and i thought id sound in...

    1: alot of players see only the pub changes... and think thats all that staff do is worry about levis and the levi complaining...on the contrary there is a ton of behind the scenes work being done and debate and planning and conversation in order to attempt to improve the zone all the time... i know staff gets a bad rep.. but as a fairly new staff member i can say i see alot of guys putting in a lot of time and effort and brain storming trying to find ways to help the zone....(at the end of the day.. remember staff isnt paid, they do it voluntarily... sure some might like status.. but many that you see are doing it to try to help and pay back a bit to the zone...as hard as that is for most to agree...

    2: some of the biggest problems whether its in events or pub is internet egos.. guys so trying to sound big and cool and do it by trying to insult others..(yes, i know this happens in most online gaming...)but when they are the ones making the biggest complaints about the game dying and why cant we keep new players... maybe they should take a step back and see what they are doing...
    ie:
    new player logs in...
    trying to figure out whats the fire button or how to move... oh wait hes spawn killed...oh whats that "newb"..."loser"... "you suck"
    now he starts to move around.. learns to fire...misses... 3 guys spawn kill him and start spamming newb, loser, you suck.. or whatever insult pops up...
    pretty soon hes maybe got lucky and killed someone, still hasnt learned to attach...probably has a 1-10 record and says screw this... this game sucks....
    food for thought...and yes we spend alot of time brainstorming some ways to get them involved and work hard trying to get new players helped out...not always with success if they dont answer.. but we sure try...

    ok back to the topics on hand:
    3:lets only worry about twd and vet players... as much as yes, we need to endorse and support and make the game inspiring for them... thinking that not worrying about pub and only worrying about vets will kill this even quicker... why? because sooner or later vets get tired or fed up and quit... i quit for 7 years, came back cause i had a bad pc for a while and since i come back i approach the game different and enjoy it even more... but we need new players to fill the holes... there is tons of players who are now vets... or been here or new since after i left... if none of them had come then how bad would it be now...? you need a balance of both...

    your comment regarding pro sports only showcasing their top teams... sure.. thats the twl or twd.. the goal to strive for.. but you gotta still have the farm teams building and developing or you wouldnt have any leagues after they all retired lol

    ok gotta cut this short, im rambling already...

    the beauty of trench, is theres so many different types of things you can do... from events, to duelling, to pub to twd, to twl, to world cups, from zombies to zelda to racing games.... we need to work together to find a way to keep all enticed and happy... which is difficult with different personalities that will always clash... but we can do it cause the one thing we have in common is in some way or another at time or another...WE ALL LOVED OR STILL LOVE THIS GAME....so that makes it worth working on to make it better!

    nothing happens overnight, it takes committed people working together to make it better...so think about that the next time your gonna flame someone or something... or insult someone in pub... are you really helping to make the zone better (and yes i know thats gonna get flamed lol... but i got broad shoulders lol)

    have a great day! see you in the Trenches!
    Women will never be equal to men until they can walk down the street with a bald head and a beer gut, and still think they are sexy.

  9. #9
    Registered User Pressure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bosshawk View Post
    1: alot of players see only the pub changes... and think thats all that staff do is worry about levis and the levi complaining...on the contrary there is a ton of behind the scenes work being done and debate and planning and conversation in order to attempt to improve the zone all the time... i know staff gets a bad rep.. but as a fairly new staff member i can say i see alot of guys putting in a lot of time and effort and brain storming trying to find ways to help the zone....(at the end of the day.. remember staff isnt paid, they do it voluntarily... sure some might like status.. but many that you see are doing it to try to help and pay back a bit to the zone...as hard as that is for most to agree...
    Sorry if I made it seem like I take for granted the work that staff puts in behind the scenes. I am well-aware of the hard-work and effort that is put in for a $0 salary, and there is no real way to thank all of those who have made this game run smoothly for me and others to play over the years. I've never been a Staff-hater, and I never joined in on the bullshit complaining, until recently. In the last year or so I've formed these opinions, and I needed these thoughts to be heard before it would be too late for them to be heard at all.
    4:Best> pressure was a terr for halloween 4:Best> guy had 4 dudes on him attached

    4:Siaxis> what time is it in zimbobwe para?

    4:Children> every morning i wake up, look in the mirror and thank god i'm not paradise

    4:Best> Mighty's forehead has wifi

    4:Mighty> u guys ever eat a ketchup sandwich?

    4:sphinx> mighty fought a raccoon in an alley for some bbq chips

    4:RaCka> so what if paradise is dressing up as a slim jim for halloween?

  10. #10
    Registered User Pressure's Avatar
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    *And I wouldn't even call what I'm doing bullshit complaining
    4:Best> pressure was a terr for halloween 4:Best> guy had 4 dudes on him attached

    4:Siaxis> what time is it in zimbobwe para?

    4:Children> every morning i wake up, look in the mirror and thank god i'm not paradise

    4:Best> Mighty's forehead has wifi

    4:Mighty> u guys ever eat a ketchup sandwich?

    4:sphinx> mighty fought a raccoon in an alley for some bbq chips

    4:RaCka> so what if paradise is dressing up as a slim jim for halloween?

  11. #11
    My Member isn't Junior
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    Thix’s post, while I am sure he believes it and was well meaning, is off the mark concerning Pub. IMO there is little doubt that Pub needs to be the highest priority if the zone is to survive.

    TW is a bucket and the population is the water. Previously new water entering the bucket was always greater than what was being lost but this is no longer the case. Some water is simply evaporating, some is sloshing out the top, and there are some leaks.

    While water conservation is important, the most efficient way to keep the bucket full is to increase the amount of water coming into it. This is what makes pub, and the new player experience, a top priority right now.
    eph

  12. #12
    Registered User Wazzaaa.nl's Avatar
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    gotta agree with eph here

    he's right we can't rely on these 'vets' who give so much value to the leagues
    just look at what happend the other day and is happening now
    they are threatning to leave trenchwars and bringing a lot of them on the way out
    however it's just circle of life, older players leave, new players get in

    the tw-general idea is cool, this way all new players can discover all types of tw-games
    Last edited by Wazzaaa.nl; 08-03-2013 at 05:20 AM.

  13. #13
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    Players who stay are the ones who don't pub...

    I'm not saying ignore pub - but focus on our strength, which is our three divisions of competition.

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    1. player goes to tw.org
    2. tw.org says "we have three uber divisions... there's wb... uber... jav.. uber.. and basing... uber... come play with us"
    3. player downloads game
    4. player completes tutorial
    5. tutorial says 'go here to find a squad'
    6. player joins squad
    7. squad helps player learn
    8. player doesn't leave

  15. #15
    Registered User Wazzaaa.nl's Avatar
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    1. player goes to tw.org
    2. tw.org says "we have three uber divisions... there's wb... uber... jav.. uber.. and basing... uber... come play with us"
    3. player downloads game
    4. player completes tutorial
    5. tutorial says 'go here to find a squad'
    6. player says fuk that i dont want to be competitve just here for fun
    7. player entertain himself in pub
    8. player stays in pub

    there are enough ppl who pub, without squadding
    so many ppl who don't want to play competitive leagues
    just here to chill in play a game in pub whenever they want to
    even lots of older players who dont squad and just login to play a game of pub
    eventually they start getting good in pub and want a challenge thats when they start squadding
    but if even pub is fukd up, empty and boring theyll quit/ uninstall the game asap

  16. #16
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    how many people want to pub but can't work out how?
    how many people want to compete but can't work out how?

  17. #17
    Wubba Lubba Dub Dub kthx's Avatar
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    You know.. I just want to say that although I agree with the TW-General thing this entire idea that some kid enters the pub and dies a few times and ragequits forever or is so dumbfounded by a very simple game. There was none of this shit when I started and I ended up learning how to play, maybe we don't want the people who can't figure out how to move with arrows and push control to shoot.
    Rabble Rabble Rabble


  18. #18
    Registered User Fork's Avatar
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    Would be cool if they made room for a jd/dd arena in pub and a squad could enter pub and challenge "the world" for a jd or dd game and a message is messaged to everyone in pub. People type "accept" to play and the first 4 players that do so get to vs that squad. That way new players can see how twd works without applying to a squad/ moving arenas- simple.
    1:Hece> iv done good A (amphetamine) many times and ppl say u cant get your dick up on it..my dick works on every chemical i have tried so far

  19. #19
    Registered User Bosshawk's Avatar
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    im not sure putting all these arenas into the pub one is better for image.. you will still have tons of guys sitting in spec.. so now guys come in and maybe theres 80 instead of 60 at that time... or 90... but theres still only lets say 10vs10 and a few solo freqs...so now insteady of 35 in spec you have 55-60 in spec...

    i guess maybe it would make it better if lots were playing in games at the time....
    but theres lots of headaches there too, how would you know who to pick... whos playing or eligible for what event...and someone in pub really isnt watching anything elsewhere in the arena....

    honestly.. new players arent the ones sitting in spec, most of them login, play and then leave right? its the ones that have developed relationships or friends or squadmates... that dont want to log off so htey have the logs in case they miss some juicy gossip lol....

    One more question might be would this generate or create more lag in the pub arena, with all the extra bots working in one arena...theres enough lag complaints as is just with normal lag of having people from different parts of the world playing lol
    Women will never be equal to men until they can walk down the street with a bald head and a beer gut, and still think they are sexy.

  20. #20
    Super Duper Pub Weasel Spock!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rab View Post
    1. player goes to tw.org
    2. tw.org says "we have three uber divisions... there's wb... uber... jav.. uber.. and basing... uber... come play with us"
    3. player downloads game
    4. player completes tutorial
    5. tutorial says 'go here to find a squad'
    6. player joins squad
    7. squad helps player learn
    8. player doesn't leave
    You seem to be forgetting that noobs are un-skilled and would get killed and spawned more in TWD than pub.. It can take a long time to build up decent skill in a WB, and they would be lucky to get a 1-10 K/D ratio. Where is the logic in pitting brand-new players against the most elite players?

    Anyway, a good basing match is more fun than any stuffy dueling arena with alot more freedom. Just a nice good tutorial on how to attach and explaining base would probably do wonders.....make it so it is impossible to skip it too :P
    "I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery."
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