STEAMROLLED BY STAFF OVER APPEAL.. NOW OUR ROSTER IS EVEN MORE HURT

[Jessup]

I'd like to thank reckful and staff for working it out with us and I apologize if in my anger/frustration I crossed a line. You all certainly aren't all bad and I do appreciate the work you put in. This issue has been resolved. We shouldn't have any more issues I hope because our line is now pretty much set.

Ricko just to chime in on your post. No where did I or do I see this rule you guys keep referring too about the twl round starts negating players eligibility clocks. From what I saw it says after a captain accepts a player to the squad , that player must sit out 1 game before being eligible to play a match.

This is how the rule is written. "Players will not be eligible to participate in Trench Wars League matches until a round occurs in which the player cannot play"

I was confused because the two players in question sat out a round where they could not play and the clock told me they were eligible in time for the next match. If anything perhaps the wording needs to be changed in the rules posted to eliminate any confusion. Anyways. .. I really do appreciate you all talking with me. In the end there were just some issues in communicating amongst ourselves. My original intention posting on forums was not to have it spiral into a flame war like it did sort of.

[Shaddowknight]

If anything perhaps the wording needs to be changed in the rules posted to eliminate any confusion.

Something to bring up to the TWL-Ops at the end of the season, along with any other rules wording issues that are known about.
Things can't be changed when they are forgotten about and not brought up again untill it's too late into next season.

[Crescent Seal]

DONT DROP THAT THUN THUN THUN EHHHHH. DONT DROP THAT THUN THUN THUN.

? one of the guys 8 posts is this?

p.s. u guys done steamrolling jessup

[Ephemeral]

Something to bring up to the TWL-Ops at the end of the season, along with any other rules wording issues that are known about.
Things can't be changed when they are forgotten about and not brought up again untill it's too late into next season.

Shaddow,
I disagree. The TWL-ops are a 'lame duck' once the season is over; there is zero continuity between seasons. The cycle is that once a season is over no one knows who will be running the league next season. There is no guarantee that anyone will return to run the next season, there are no elections for these positions. TWL-ops positions are solicited at the start of each season. Best effort is given to simply choosing who this might be and I am sure that one of the selection criteria are those who have done it before. But frankly for various reasons few TWL-ops (if any) have returned season after season.

The result of this complete lack of continuity. Few newly hired TWL-ops are going to invest, or tackle the risk, by making sweeping rules changes. Instead each one follows the same pre-season pattern; ‘poll’ players for input, cherry pick a few of the smaller, easier and less controversial things to improve, and then launch the season. They are usually assigned to the positions a few weeks before the season starts and this gives them little time to make changes. But the rules are, and have been, an abortion for years. (Even the simplest rules, such as extending the time before a game to allow the submission of lineups, are still not fixed after years of misinterpretation.)

No, the problem is not that players bring up rule changes mid-season. Many of us brought up the need for rule changes before the many of the season’s start. Some of us even rewrote the rules (twice) and presented them for consideration before the league were started and no action was taken. So I reject your statement and your premise. The real problem and issue here is the exact same issues that plagued staff for years. A lack of continuity, a lack of leadership that concerns themselves with the long-term, a lack of people being held responsible for the jobs they do.

This is not at all uncommon for volunteer organizations; people join, contribute some, and then burn out. This is a normal challenge for the zone; but the direction/vision/mission statement (choose what you want to call it) should always be followed. This shouldn’t be a place where someone joins, tries to change a few things in their vision, and then quit. This culture is just now finally starting to change but now that we are 15-18 years into this, it is hard to not think that it is too late.
eph

[Morh]

Shaddow,
I disagree. The TWL-ops are a 'lame duck' once the season is over; there is zero continuity between seasons. The cycle is that once a season is over no one knows who will be running the league next season. There is no guarantee that anyone will return to run the next season, there are no elections for these positions. TWL-ops positions are solicited at the start of each season. Best effort is given to simply choosing who this might be and I am sure that one of the selection criteria are those who have done it before. But frankly for various reasons few TWL-ops (if any) have returned season after season.

The result of this complete lack of continuity. Few newly hired TWL-ops are going to invest, or tackle the risk, by making sweeping rules changes. Instead each one follows the same pre-season pattern; ‘poll’ players for input, cherry pick a few of the smaller, easier and less controversial things to improve, and then launch the season. They are usually assigned to the positions a few weeks before the season starts and this gives them little time to make changes. But the rules are, and have been, an abortion for years. (Even the simplest rules, such as extending the time before a game to allow the submission of lineups, are still not fixed after years of misinterpretation.)

No, the problem is not that players bring up rule changes mid-season. Many of us brought up the need for rule changes before the many of the season’s start. Some of us even rewrote the rules (twice) and presented them for consideration before the league were started and no action was taken. So I reject your statement and your premise. The real problem and issue here is the exact same issues that plagued staff for years. A lack of continuity, a lack of leadership that concerns themselves with the long-term, a lack of people being held responsible for the jobs they do.

This is not at all uncommon for volunteer organizations; people join, contribute some, and then burn out. This is a normal challenge for the zone; but the direction/vision/mission statement (choose what you want to call it) should always be followed. This shouldn’t be a place where someone joins, tries to change a few things in their vision, and then quit. This culture is just now finally starting to change but now that we are 15-18 years into this, it is hard to not think that it is too late.
eph

This.

[Jessup]

Brilliantly put Ephemeral.

[Rasaq]

[Reckful]

Shaddow,
I disagree. The TWL-ops are a 'lame duck' once the season is over; there is zero continuity between seasons. The cycle is that once a season is over no one knows who will be running the league next season. There is no guarantee that anyone will return to run the next season, there are no elections for these positions. TWL-ops positions are solicited at the start of each season. Best effort is given to simply choosing who this might be and I am sure that one of the selection criteria are those who have done it before. But frankly for various reasons few TWL-ops (if any) have returned season after season.

Going to take some time and touch on this post if I may from my point of view. The cycle you point out is indeed very correct as it will occur at the end of this season. I personally have no interest in running TWL however, that being said there are 2 members of active staff capable of running this league atm myself and M_M God. While there are others learning the ropes of running TWL this season (tiny and ricko) they are not prepared to deal with its day to day issues. Personally the biggest problems turnover rate wise for TWL Heads is:
1. This community in general is extremely toxic towards staff decision making. There is no decision I myself can make in twl that wont come with some sort of backlash from the community.
2. The internal workings of staff to get a task done across separate departments at times is appalling. My point of reference for this is the TWL rules not being updated. I made a bunch of amendments several months ago to address some of the issues in the rules and having contacting stick (our only real active webdev) Krynetix (Current acting head of dev and best person to contact stick) and even resorting to asking Dezmond they are still not uploaded.
3. Its a shitload of man hours to run TWL not that many have the time to deal with it.

The result of this complete lack of continuity. Few newly hired TWL-ops are going to invest, or tackle the risk, by making sweeping rules changes. Instead each one follows the same pre-season pattern; ‘poll’ players for input, cherry pick a few of the smaller, easier and less controversial things to improve, and then launch the season. They are usually assigned to the positions a few weeks before the season starts and this gives them little time to make changes. But the rules are, and have been, an abortion for years. (Even the simplest rules, such as extending the time before a game to allow the submission of lineups, are still not fixed after years of misinterpretation.)

This is a bit 50/50 to a degree its true in most cases however even though I never wanted to be apart of running this season I did make preparations months out that I would run it by planning different aspects that I though possible. For instance the attempt at launching the All-star games aswell as plans to induct a new Hall of fame class into TWL. I was actively looking for a new head of TWL up until about the end of November when it dawned on me such a candidate doesnt exist from the current playerbase for various reasons such as humid cannot return both because sysops dont want him and his hate of demonic. To compensate I tried to incorporate active TWL players as TWL-Ops with the following results landing on Tiny Ricko and undercut remaining from the group. My previous hopefuls of Shayde (not sure of time to commit) Squallff8 (same issue) and cranium (disapproval of recent decisions) all backing out as it drew closer to crunch time. While I do believe rule changes are needed in TWL I dont personally consider myself the best person to make them. The other complication with things atm is I cant exercise a backbone with TWL as I'm under pressure from multiple angels that the continuation of the league is absolutely vital to such a degree that losing 1 squad can cripple it. This is true to a degree but I must pay the price of compromising my standards to maintain a fair league and just league to all involved. While personally I know the limits I can push without being reprimanded I too must succumb to petty politics both internally in staff and with the public to make everyone happy.

No, the problem is not that players bring up rule changes mid-season. Many of us brought up the need for rule changes before the many of the season’s start. Some of us even rewrote the rules (twice) and presented them for consideration before the league were started and no action was taken. So I reject your statement and your premise. The real problem and issue here is the exact same issues that plagued staff for years. A lack of continuity, a lack of leadership that concerns themselves with the long-term, a lack of people being held responsible for the jobs they do.

This is not at all uncommon for volunteer organizations; people join, contribute some, and then burn out. This is a normal challenge for the zone; but the direction/vision/mission statement (choose what you want to call it) should always be followed. This shouldn’t be a place where someone joins, tries to change a few things in their vision, and then quit. This culture is just now finally starting to change but now that we are 15-18 years into this, it is hard to not think that it is too late.
eph

No revised rules were ever sent to me or even mentioned to me and given I've been the Head of all leagues in TW / Head of TWL for the last what 6 months or so I'm curious as to what is being referred to here.

Finally for a bit of personal opinion on staff in general and not gonna sit here and call others out but this is my observing internally over the last few years. Staff quality in general has been on a decline for many reasons lack of recruitment options, dwindling playerbase, lack of gratification etc. There are a ton of things internally that need addressing but quite frankly it will never happen things are too stuck in old paths of thought. I've sat here and watch staffers I use to respect and learn a lot from crumble under stress and over worked due to lack of dedicated people to fill gaps and attempt to make a difference.

Best example is fiS when I new on staff she was amazing always hosting always online doing stuff taking calls, helping new players, Running a squad for newbs and training new staffers in all she knew hosting wise. Then her downfall happened she was promoted to smod as the Head of staff training. Became overworked, had problems adjusting to leadership but eventually leveled out and learned how to handle it. Last year she was promoted to sysop and basically collapsed after a few months running pub and is now around staff as a mod hanging out and for the first time relaxed again. Not to spend too much time on 1 person but theres plenty of examples to look at.

LF for instance taught me pretty much everything I needed to know when I was hired. I looked up to him as a great source of how to handle issues as a staffer. He had a nasty fallout of staff but thats besides the point. Left_eye is another example of someone drastically over worked in staff coordinating ECT weekend events solo and hosting most of them for many months. Eventually taking the head of bang as a "break" so to speak which ended up causing another collapse of a good staff over worked under pressure. Honestly though I cant sit here and address the major issues publicly but they start at the very top at the sysops and just gets worse going down. At the lower level simple things have lost alot of its old standards. Things new staffers get away with hell a simple example is blueout warnings from twd games being overlooked for multiple offenses. Staff has lost alot of its continuity but there are still people active and dedicated trying to make a difference. Its just horribly over shadowed by any instance of abuse.

I honestly think the zone will survive for quite a bit more time. Efforts are being made everyday the public doesnt see to try and improve things and while I have confidence in it the efforts I do agree that things need to change and I hope when this council finally forms it does get taken seriously by all parties involved and things like the issues seen today can be avoided with better planning coordination and above all else teamwork.

Anyways I'm done ranting was just some thoughts.

[Zeebu]

this is the first season where i dont overly mind not playing twl. it is 100% due to the decisions staff has been making about twd and twl. so i guess theres that.

[Ephemeral]

Reck,
Please understand that I was not being critical of those, like yourself, who put in time doing this work. I understand about burn out, I understand it is a thankless job. My point has always been that these jobs have always been needlessly hard and time consuming. Having poorly implemented rules has burned time year after year; over a decade now. A classic case of 'false economy' if there ever was one. You can go back and look at all the threads (they occur every year) here in the TWL section and see exactly how the poor rules have sucked time. It would have been far better, for both the people TWL-ops and the players, if the rules had been fixed a decade ago. But instead we get the endless procession of folks like you, who contribute in a big way, only to decide to not put this kind of time in again. Hence the TWL-op turn over rate is what it is.

Since you asked here is a quote from a post I did 2012 on the this subject. At that time I was making the exact same point about the poorly written rules and its impact on TWL-ops burn out and turn over. It contains a link to the 2010 posts where some samples were done to illustrate an improvement to the rules in an attempt to help. (Staff aren't the only people who burn out, players who have tried to help the zone for years by playing pub and doing things like this also can reach a point where they say 'screw it').
eph

Having annual turnover does not preclude having a multi-year plan and priority lists. But I think there is something much more damaging at work underneath all of this and it actually has been eating away at TW for years. Leadership is about sorting through large, complex inputs and prioritizing them properly. Instead TW leadership has evolved into much different, something that quite frankly looks very much like the American political system. By expecting, even encouraging, constant change there becomes the appearance of improvement.
But good leadership is not being able to say ‘hey, I listened to the people and got a few singular things done’. It is about laying the foundation for good things to happen moving forward for years to come.
Suppose you just purchased a great 15 acre property for your retirement. You could just go throw up a single room cabin for now and then spend decades ‘adding on to it’ without any real master plan. After 25 years what you end up with is a cluster fuck house that might not even be sitting in the right place on the property. Every single time you try to go do something you have to peel back the layers of short-term thinking that went into the current cluster fuck. As years go by everything becomes more and more difficult and costly. I am sure you recognize this as the current state of TW (and its league subsets).



I do believe that there is value in defining what it takes to receive a medal but it important to keep it very ‘broad brush’ and simple; ‘if the leadership of a squad feels player X deserves one, they get it’. And of course this is accomplished by roster limits now. Each squad leadership should have the freedom to define and control this, we don’t need highly defined qualifying participation rules.
Consider this situation. You have a Player X who supports the team in Season10 with huge league activity and participation but ultimately lose in the finals. In Season 11 you have the same core group of players but Player X has IRL reasons that you know will impact his activity level, perhaps he has been called out for military duty or school. But you decide to consume a valuable roster spot by adding him in hopes he can at least some game time logged. Your squad goes on to win the finals without Player X ever logging a single minute of league game time. IMO it is completely up the squad leadership to make these kinds of decisions and exercise control over them.
But by highly defining and quantifying participation you are restricting each squad’s leadership ability to run the squad as they see fit. I don’t think that squads needs these kinds of hoops to jump through when the only issue being ‘fixed’ are outsiders opinion on who on YOUR team deserves a ring.
You state that “it's absolutely retarded that we hand them out for people throwing up pom pom's and high fives”. But why should the league, or anyone else, feel like YOU are handing out rings? I think that the decision for ‘handing them out’ should be a squad leadership call and they earned the right to do so by winning.



My first thread about changing the organization of TWL rules was in 2006 and I am pretty sure that I followed up each year after that. I know for sure that in the third week of June 2011 I submitted a draft in this forum for consideration that reflected the organizational changes that could be made. Here is a copy of that 2011 draft.
The issue is simply this, the rules blend both the ‘law’ itself and the ‘punishment’. This results in constant bending of them along with the application of subjective interpretation. Not only is this simply unfair to the staffer who has to handle the game, it makes the rules nothing more than ‘guidelines’. By simply de-attaching the punishments you make the rules much clearer. But even more importantly, you allow room for to make decisions based upon a case-by-case basis without making the rules themselves look like they have been compromised. A perfect example is a court system in which the trial only determines if the law was broken and to what degree. But the sentencing is a completely separate process in which various factors are taken into account that determines the actual punishment.
The current blending of laws/punishment into a single body of rules only serves to make them a joke. Everyone knows that there is going to be interpretations and everyone knows that there will be endless drama and appeals throughout the season.
And as a side note, TWL rules epitomize not having a multiple year vision and plan. The Season 2 rules (LOL @ Cripples being disqualified from Season 2 playoffs for playing 3 sharks at once!) have just been constantly tweaked season after season by each group running that years league instead of anyone stepping back and fixing the organization.
All that said, nothing can changed a week before the season starts. This season will be run as it always has been, with a few people spending endless hours trying their best to make it a good season. It is not their fault that putting lipstick on a pig is a stupid idea.
eph

[Reckful]

Ah good post unfortunate I didnt see it months ago. In my opinion TWL will never reach the point of having dedicated staff year to year the burnout rate of heads and lack of candidates will ensure it. That being said I dont thing its entirely unreasonable for things to be updated and tracked year to year for instance when this new council forms its members could negotiate amendments to the TWL rules. The main reason I recommend this is the council would be a static force in Trench Wars that would always meet for issues and track things so I believe it would have better luck than a fresh TWL head year to year.

[Ephemeral]

IMO it is completely reasonable to have a documented ‘mission statement/objective/direction’ for the zone (which exists) and for the leagues (which kinda exists). This is the ‘go to’ thing that every single decision should be weighted against. This is what would bring the consistency and continuality across multiple years and the changes of the resources. But for various reasons this has not been effective; we still have had people run with things in with their own ‘vision’ and not feel obligated to stick to the larger picture.
eph