TWL PROPOSAL

[Ricko]

I think allowing people different squads for each league would become a bit of a headache tbh from an administrative side and IMO competing across the board with your squad is what builds comradery between squad members...if say I run a wb squad and we have enough guys willing and wanting to learn how to base as a squad that can be a lot of fun to try to improve together and every basing win means that much more.

Having players split out across different squads is leading us down the direction of reduced squad loyalty in the zone; yes you could complain that loyalty is somewhat to blame for squad stacking over recent years (or just people greedily wanting free titles) but we need to maintain or promote squad loyalty as building close knit relationships with squaddies is half the appeal of this game.

My squad Gladiator I set up a week before the DDOS attack is aimed at being a combination of vets and newbs with the aim to help train up newer players in TWD whilst also building a strong squad ethos. If no newer squaddies are online we can put out a competitive line and beat better squads, but when they are online we drop the level of who we play and try to help train them. I believe that newb squads arent really that productive in developing new players, infact they just end up getting destroyed in TWD matches. The way forward is to recruit a decent portion of newbs on to your roster and integrating them with more experienced guys who can show them the ropes.... throwing in a vet or 2 into a 4v4 twd match who help 'carry' the newbs to wins is more beneficial than having 4 newbs in together being beaten 50-15 every time and losing any motivation to attempt to become better at the game. You can argue that a vet hitting 18+ kills every match won't help the newbs develop, but it will....they will learn by watching how good players fight and grow confidence in their own ability through winning matches even if they only go 4-10 to start off with.

Let's be honest, winning is what makes games fun, if we have newbs flying beside vets it will accelerate their development skill wise and allow them to take enjoyment from the game in winning more. Losing 20 games in a row isn't fun for anyone and in this day and age where people have so many games to play why would they stick at one where they just lose all day?

P.S Gladiator is recruiting.

[Dethdefire]

I think allowing people different squads for each league would become a bit of a headache tbh from an administrative side and IMO competing across the board with your squad is what builds comradery between squad members...if say I run a wb squad and we have enough guys willing and wanting to learn how to base as a squad that can be a lot of fun to try to improve together and every basing win means that much more.

Having players split out across different squads is leading us down the direction of reduced squad loyalty in the zone; yes you could complain that loyalty is somewhat to blame for squad stacking over recent years (or just people greedily wanting free titles) but we need to maintain or promote squad loyalty as building close knit relationships with squaddies is half the appeal of this game.

My squad Gladiator I set up a week before the DDOS attack is aimed at being a combination of vets and newbs with the aim to help train up newer players in TWD whilst also building a strong squad ethos. If no newer squaddies are online we can put out a competitive line and beat better squads, but when they are online we drop the level of who we play and try to help train them. I believe that newb squads arent really that productive in developing new players, infact they just end up getting destroyed in TWD matches. The way forward is to recruit a decent portion of newbs on to your roster and integrating them with more experienced guys who can show them the ropes.... throwing in a vet or 2 into a 4v4 twd match who help 'carry' the newbs to wins is more beneficial than having 4 newbs in together being beaten 50-15 every time and losing any motivation to attempt to become better at the game. You can argue that a vet hitting 18+ kills every match won't help the newbs develop, but it will....they will learn by watching how good players fight and grow confidence in their own ability through winning matches even if they only go 4-10 to start off with.

Let's be honest, winning is what makes games fun, if we have newbs flying beside vets it will accelerate their development skill wise and allow them to take enjoyment from the game in winning more. Losing 20 games in a row isn't fun for anyone and in this day and age where people have so many games to play why would they stick at one where they just lose all day?

P.S Gladiator is recruiting.

am not sure if you understood my idea exactly. As an example, if Gladiator qualified for only TWLD and TWLJ and you had a player who also was able to play competitively in TWLB he would have the option to join a TWLB squad during the soft lock to participate in that league. Gladiator would be his primary TWD, TWLD and TWLJ squad and Squad B would be his secondary TWLB squad for TWL only. It may or may not allow for a few more competitive squads to emerge during twl. I think it is worth a shot. This would not have any impact on you experimenting with another league as a TWD squad. I don't know how staff verify eligible players but I cant imagine it to be that difficult to compile a list together for referencing. I would much rather see a small headache in handling a few extra competitive squads than the large headache we continue to see from disastrous TWL seasons.

Ricko, I respect you as not only a vet of the game but as a top notch player. However, It is really hard for me to take your statement of squad comradery seriously when you haven't been on a squad longer than three months since the end of 2011. I don't know if that was just a statement to support your recruiting propaganda or if maybe you have just been inactive from the competitive scene. I have been known to jump to conclusions so forgive my ignorance if that is the case. I do suppose everyone has their own views on this topic. I just don't see three month stints on squads as being symbolic of "Squad loyalty." At this point TW is probably a game that "Squad loyalty" should not be a topic in. I have never played any game in which changing squads so frequently is a normal and acceptable aspect of the game. The appeal of the game has not been "Squad loyalty" for YEARS. The appeal of this game has always been that you can come in for a relatively short period of time have a little fun playing and chatting with friends and then leave. That appeal has been greatly reduced by the lack of competitive TWD games.

The absolute importance here is to promote and focus on developing competitive teams of players to not only keep the remaining vets interested but slowly introduce new players into the game at the same time. This will not be accomplished only by bringing newer players into squads with a handful of veterans. While these squads will indeed help newer players develop over a long period of time, they will certainly in no way make TWL more appealing or competitive for veteran players. YOU WILL NOT accomplish this by merely tweaking a few small aspects of TWL. My argument is not just that we need to develop new players. It is that we need to do it while retaining the veterans that we have trough not being closed minded in our approach to make BOTH TWL and TWD a more competitive place. I made the original DragonGuard out of a group of pub players, as I have done in every game I have played, and together we transformed it into a decently competitive squad over a period of three years. I know the process and its not a fast enough answer to our immediate dilemma.

[Ricko]

That's definitely jumping to conclusions lol. If you look I was in Penetrate for 10 months, Cobra for 5 months and squadding with the same core of friends across numerous squadnames for 7 months since 2011 and 2 squads that I was on for 3 months each, that's effectively 5 squads over nearly 2 and a half years which isn't too bad.

I understood exactly what you meant, I mean if people wanted it so you could league on 3 different squads then so be it....I just think that takes away a lot from the game. What I said wasn't a propaganda statement at all, many active players will know I have roughly stuck with the same group of guys for the last few years.

[Dethdefire]

That's definitely jumping to conclusions lol. If you look I was in Penetrate for 10 months, Cobra for 5 months and squadding with the same core of friends across numerous squadnames for 7 months since 2011 and 2 squads that I was on for 3 months each, that's effectively 5 squads over nearly 2 and a half years which isn't too bad.

I understood exactly what you meant, I mean if people wanted it so you could league on 3 different squads then so be it....I just think that takes away a lot from the game. What I said wasn't a propaganda statement at all, many active players will know I have roughly stuck with the same group of guys for the last few years.

Well, I never said that I wasen't good at shooting myself in the foot! lol.

[Rule]

Everyone does have their own views on this, mine are:

I think improving squad/player identity is very important and part of the reason we are where we are now is both are at an all time low:

Long-term squad loyalty is a rarity nowadays. Not always players fault there either as squads come and go. Some caps are absolutely useless and should lose the privilege to cap after x amount of short-term remakes. Aliasing is widely accepted by staff and caps, so its fine for a player like Hurricane for example to use 3 different names as long as it fits the current TWD/TWL rules. I think that's garbage. A large percentage of the aliasers in this game, are not benefiting the game, a lot of them are trolling, trash talking etc.

When I was capping, their is really no way to know if a new player is genuinely a new addition to trench wars, a player from another zone or one of our many aliasers (who have often worn their welcome so thin, that they try to reinvent with a new name) - this makes recruiting harder, if your a cap who has principles. Yes, you can run it by staff, but often you get incomplete answers, as they need to maintain the privacy of the individual. So why would you recruit them in first place? as a cap you would rather recruit genuine players who want to stick with your squad, not transient aliasers.

When you kill player identity and squad identity's (IE player x can play lj, ld on this squad, lb -that squad) you begin to kill off whats important in first place, the basic idea that a group of players can band together and create something special. Allowing players to play on multiple squads kills rivalry, kills identity and my opinion is far more of a detriment then a plus for TWD or TWL.

I think with TWD activity at all time low it may be important initially to put a focus on TWDD and TWJD first - as its the best chance for squads to compete against each other regularly IE 3 vs 3 etc. That said maybe its equally important to put the focus on TWBD where you can get 6-8 players actively involved instead of having 4 on the bench watching.

[Dethdefire]

Everyone does have their own views on this, mine are:

I think improving squad/player identity is very important and part of the reason we are where we are now is both are at an all time low:

Long-term squad loyalty is a rarity nowadays. Not always players fault there either as squads come and go. Some caps are absolutely useless and should lose the privilege to cap after x amount of short-term remakes. Aliasing is widely accepted by staff and caps, so its fine for a player like Hurricane for example to use 3 different names as long as it fits the current TWD/TWL rules. I think that's garbage. A large percentage of the aliasers in this game, are not benefiting the game, a lot of them are trolling, trash talking etc.

When I was capping, their is really no way to know if a new player is genuinely a new addition to trench wars, a player from another zone or one of our many aliasers (who have often worn their welcome so thin, that they try to reinvent with a new name) - this makes recruiting harder, if your a cap who has principles. Yes, you can run it by staff, but often you get incomplete answers, as they need to maintain the privacy of the individual. So why would you recruit them in first place? as a cap you would rather recruit genuine players who want to stick with your squad, not transient aliasers.

When you kill player identity and squad identity's (IE player x can play lj, ld on this squad, lb -that squad) you begin to kill off whats important in first place, the basic idea that a group of players can band together and create something special. Allowing players to play on multiple squads kills rivalry, kills identity and my opinion is far more of a detriment then a plus for TWD or TWL.

I think with TWD activity at all time low it may be important initially to put a focus on TWDD and TWJD first - as its the best chance for squads to compete against each other regularly IE 3 vs 3 etc. That said maybe its equally important to put the focus on TWBD where you can get 6-8 players actively involved instead of having 4 on the bench watching.

I understand what you are both saying with squad identity. There was a time that this zone could fully support your views. Unfortunately the issue with this now is that the majority of vets that feel the same way, likely some who may chime in with agreement, are all stacked on one of the few competitive squads left, thus negating any rhetoric about expanding the competitiveness of TWD or TWL. Only a very select few have shown the willingness to make any effort to change that. You WILL NOT add competitive squads unless these vet players either choose to split up or are provided the ability to expand out without having to separate from their friends that they have squaded with for god knows how long! Hell, maybe they still wouldn't even if given the ability to. I certainly hope that through the ideas we have all shared we are able to come up with something that will give back a much needed edge. I definitely appreciate you guys taking the time to read and acknowledge my ideas, agree or disagree.

[Rule]

I understand what you are both saying with squad identity. There was a time that this zone could fully support your views. Unfortunately the issue with this now is that the majority of vets that feel the same way, likely some who may chime in with agreement, are all stacked on one of the few competitive squads left, thus negating any rhetoric about expanding the competitiveness of TWD or TWL. Only a very select few have shown the willingness to make any effort to change that. You WILL NOT add competitive squads unless these vet players either choose to split up or are provided the ability to expand out without having to separate from their friends that they have squaded with for god knows how long! Hell, maybe they still wouldn't even if given the ability to. I certainly hope that through the ideas we have all shared we are able to come up with something that will give back a much needed edge. I definitely appreciate you guys taking the time to read and acknowledge my ideas, agree or disagree.

The truth is alot of these vets that are on the few remaining competitive TWL squads are not worth worrying about. Half of them will be inactive once TWL is finished. Their are lots of other vets around, who will be intrested in a revamped twd league. The future growth of TWD relies on taking everyone who wants to be involved, heavily recruiting new players, improving the league and building from there. Not worrying about x amount of players who want to stack on the same squad, with some acting like turds to the rest of the zone (I have stated previous examples enough in other threads). If those squads actually do break up - long-term then you will see some new growth. Once TWL-D is finished we will see some squads dissolve, and some player movement. Also I think caps of newer TWD squads need to set long-term goals, for making sure they are involved in the next TWL. Thats where I would ask players like Dethdefire and Ricko if they are really in it for the long-term - running a squad that will be active till January or if they plan to fold long before/or just before TWL because of life committments or the fact they have to be on a TWL conteder.

[Star Fox]

I would love to hear more expansion on these kinds of ideas. Not like in the past with "newb squads" that only have a vet captain, but just genuine mentoring, and a new attitude in the zone that this is what the top players should be doing if they feel like they have already "mastered" this game and/or their particular ship. They could prove their skills through other new people they've personally trained instead of whatever it is they think they're proving by getting a 10th medal next to a bunch of other 16-year veterans on an overly-stacked team, AGAIN.
Masters of trades IRL often will take on students to pass their knowledge onto them. IMHO, the mark of a true pro in this game's future won't be someone having a bunch of pixels next to their name (medals) earned by Walmarting teams, but being someone who is willing to create a squad that isn't 3/4 their friends/old squaddies, and take on protégés who aren't much more than raw potential to start with.

Probably doesn't need to be EVERYONE to make big changes, but If even a few of the top squads were willing to split and play with pupils, the competition in the game would go way up from there only being 2-3 actual teams in any given league. The natural tendency in games like this are to play with your friends, but if you are all in chats together already there is no real reason why you couldn't just keep the teaming together with your friends in wbduel, javduel, ?go base, and for TWD adopt a mindset of friendly rivalry like "my new apprentice will beat yours" or "mine will be good enough for TWL this season"

But it would be better if a couple serious vets took the initiative themselves and the rest followed suit ... instead of staff forcing it upon everyone and dividing up the top players like some sort of TW Draft Tournament-type of setting, since assigning players "values" gets a little messy to put it lightly.

Listen to this man. Time and time again it's the same 2-3 squads that outclass any of the rest by a mile. Anything but finals is typically quite a bore to watch. There are very few upsets. Upsets are what everyone loves, just look at the NCAA tournament. But I really haven't seen it happen too much in TWL. We need to spread the veterans around a little bit.

This is really tricky though, because it's not very sporting to force tight-knit groups of space-buddies that have been flying together for several years to break off and join different squads. I've yet to think of, or see a satisfying solution to this. One of the best ideas was the draft tournament, but that didn't really work out either because everyone just used aliases, though it was still a little closer than TWL because of some anonymity. We need a way to incentivize spreading skill levels more evenly among squads. The how is difficult.

Regarding Ricko's initial suggestions, I very much like the idea of more games, though I understand Ephemeral's concerns about lack of time and resources to run everything smoothly. I very much dislike the idea of awarding more points for absolutely crushing newer squads. Most vets will view these matches as a waste of time, and many new players will be quite discouraged by this. Another problem is that all of those benchers on Fierce/Pandora will stay benched instead of getting a turn against the weaker squads. How is that possibly a good thing? That means even fewer people get to participate.

[Mighty]

Well, from my point of view, we should really take action against squads stacking players, especially now that the zone is dying. Players from top squads should equally divide up instead of being idiots man. This isn't an issue for me considering I haven't participated in TWL this season, but if i did, trust me my dudes, I would rip through these stacked squads and show you guys that they arent really as tough as they seem. I remember when staff implemented a rule saying something about how players have to play twl games in order to gain rings, this clearly hasn't worked at all considering players who bench on fierce/pandora are still getting rings regardless. That rule should be taken more serious and staff should really do something about that in order to get the best experience from TWL.

[Shortwood]

I think splitting up these teams would be a great idea; It would reanimate TWD, too.

Top players with leadership skills in "player" positions should start their own squads.

[Jessup]

Skimmed this thread, especially the last page. I like ideas about making changes for more inclusiveness in the twl format to spark interest. Not sure how any of it would work out though. Things just naturally seem to repeat themselves and the same people will play together or a very similar variations of top players will. I just had a little idea though that crossed my mind. How about a rule that says all players on a twl division roster must be allotted playtime in at least 2 games or something. How a squad deals with a written rule would be up to them as long as it was followed. Subbing a player out fast could be an option for example but still ...I think it could lay a whole new foundation for TWL where a new strategy is made where focus on how to use your whole squads roster would have to be thought out rather than just a top 5 or top 8(TWLB) scenario. Having 10 or more players basically bench out a season in spec seems restrictive and if we are looking at the idea of inclusiveness I thought it may be an idea to kick around. It would excite more new players too as they would have a real chance of playing in a match.

Just a thought..

Before any new changes can take place having the sscu server would be nice too...lol D I know you guys been working hard on it... jking around there

[Dethdefire]

Skimmed this thread, especially the last page. I like ideas about making changes for more inclusiveness in the twl format to spark interest. Not sure how any of it would work out though. Things just naturally seem to repeat themselves and the same people will play together or a very similar variations of top players will. I just had a little idea though that crossed my mind. How about a rule that says all players on a twl division roster must be allotted playtime in at least 2 games or something. How a squad deals with a written rule would be up to them as long as it was followed. Subbing a player out fast could be an option for example but still ...I think it could lay a whole new foundation for TWL where a new strategy is made where focus on how to use your whole squads roster would have to be thought out rather than just a top 5 or top 8(TWLB) scenario. Having 10 or more players basically bench out a season in spec seems restrictive and if we are looking at the idea of inclusiveness I thought it may be an idea to kick around. It would excite more new players too as they would have a real chance of playing in a match.

Just a thought..

Before any new changes can take place having the sscu server would be nice too...lol D I know you guys been working hard on it... jking around there

I think that this is a great idea but I wonder how difficult it would be to implement and kept track of? I was also thinking that making a roster cap of 10 players, per TWLD and TWLJ league, and leave the entire 25+5 TWL roster open for TWLB for each squad instead of just a 25+5 cap for all leagues like we have now could potentially create more TWLD and TWLJ squads. Basically, squads wouldn't be able to stack 25 players for one league but if they have multi-league players they could be on the roster for both leagues, taking one of the 10 spots in both leagues. The overall problem is that if all these players have been content benching who is to say any of this would convince them to create another squad.

[Jessup]

Hey Deth, glad you are at least liking the concept. I doubt it would be too hard to follow who played in what game seeing as matches and players used all get recorded onto this site. I wouldn't mind seeing a 10 roster limit either like you are suggesting but if that happened I'd like to see the squad limit then increased from 8 to 10 squads in TWL. More people being able to participate and/or improving competition is the main goal here. The whole 2 to 3 power house squads dominating is getting a bit boring and predictable.

One problem we had on Paladen this year was getting 5 players to show every week. We managed but barely and that was with 15 so I do worry a bit how a 10 player roster limit could work out. Savanger had a nightmare situation with their no shows , also cougars got disqualified , I think there was even a basing squad disqualified too? Still ,both your scenario and mine even with the added stress it would put on players to show up could be a viable option as many of these twl benchers on top squads are very active good players, then mix in new players on the lower tier squads who will be stoked to have a chance to play in twl. Roster of 10's I think by no means would be a definite fail.

I like these ideas everyone is working on to make things better. Some new change(s) would be fun at least... and hopefully improve things in the end. Also if there is a change , of course (we)/ someone would need to write the rules up and post them to twl or twd site. I'd assume this would be one of tw councils big tasks along with the twl ops/staffers. Anyways.. it is fun to talk about new ideas.

[Ricko]

I very much dislike the idea of awarding more points for absolutely crushing newer squads. Most vets will view these matches as a waste of time, and many new players will be quite discouraged by this. Another problem is that all of those benchers on Fierce/Pandora will stay benched instead of getting a turn against the weaker squads. How is that possibly a good thing? That means even fewer people get to participate.

The idea is so that people will see it's more competitive so will not want to bench on a squad knowing they won't get played even vs the newer squads....it's about spreading the talent about. Also the points system promotes top end teams trying harder and lower teams trying harder constantly throughout the season in every match....isn't TWL about bringing out the competitive side in everyone?

I find it strange so many people are willing to stack on squads and get no game time.....from what I can gather some squads have a lot of people that dislike eachother.

What are people's thoughts on splitting out the playoffs as 4 in the top end go to TWL playoffs, bottom 4 go into an 'amateur' playoffs? This format seemed pretty beneficial for the zone IMO.

[Dethdefire]

The idea is so that people will see it's more competitive so will not want to bench on a squad knowing they won't get played even vs the newer squads....it's about spreading the talent about. Also the points system promotes top end teams trying harder and lower teams trying harder constantly throughout the season in every match....isn't TWL about bringing out the competitive side in everyone?

I find it strange so many people are willing to stack on squads and get no game time.....from what I can gather some squads have a lot of people that dislike eachother.

What are people's thoughts on splitting out the playoffs as 4 in the top end go to TWL playoffs, bottom 4 go into an 'amateur' playoffs? This format seemed pretty beneficial for the zone IMO.

I think there would have to be some kind of incentive for the amateur playoff's to be appealing. Maybe in some way allowing the winning team of the amateur playoffs a spot in the TWL playoffs? Im not sure how it could be implemented with the league not being single elimination though. The only logical way would be to postpone the regular playoff season tell the amateur season finishes. Or maybe have the amateur season played within 1-2 weeks by having the amateur semi finals and finals on the same weekend/day?