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Thread: Trench Wars Pub & Zone REVITALIZATION - Need your feedback

  1. #41
    Registered User Delbi's Avatar
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    Hello,
    I have been playing Continuum, but Trench Wars specifically for a long time.
    After a lengthy (forceful) hiatus I am back and I am saddened by the current state of the game.
    This game truely means a lot to me, and I want nothing more than to regain sime of our lost population or even create some new participants.
    While I agree with the proposed changes, for the most part I'd also like to put some influence on getting rid of some those arenas that are populated by bots. It's hard to not think this game is dead when all you can see is a pub (filled with people that are afk) and a whole list of zones that has one or two people in them.
    For the people that have been playing a while this game is in our bloods, along with the tradition of it all and I think that its extremely important to preserve that.
    When this game is going and thriving its better than any other game because of A.) It's amazing community of diehard players and B.) It's completely and totally free.
    It sounds stupid and doesn't make any sense but when Continuum was soley community based it seemed to do better as well.
    I agree with the proposed changes, let's do what we can to keep the pub packed. If I am a first time player and I see a thriving atmosphere teeming with intelligent (and unintelligent) life then I am much more likely to make a return trip to the world of Trench Wars.
    I also think some cleaning up can be done with squadnames and usernames.
    Thank you for the time.

  2. #42
    Leland
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    tl;dr
    Leland

  3. #43
    ` Jones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leland View Post
    tl;dr
    get rid of pub as there are more bots and afk people there than in any other arena
    Quote Originally Posted by jerome
    can we stop and wonder in amazement at the fact that we play a VIDEO GAME that has "generations"???

  4. #44
    Daryl Lorenz rothe's Avatar
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    Hanging on to a resentment, someone once said, is like drinking poison and hoping it will kill someone else.

    Anyone have anything positive to add?

  5. #45
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    Another thing to consider. If you have different events, it can suck people out of pub, potentially worsening things. Chaos Zone's pub has died over the past year because of this. Its league is apparently still going ok, but for people wanting to pub, it sucks.

  6. #46
    -VwV-Royal Blue-VwV- Rasaq's Avatar
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    Any updates on this? Also, is there anything we can do with the emailing system to help with activity?

  7. #47
    Registered User Pressure's Avatar
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    Staff, I know you are busy, but TW is really the worst it has ever been atm. Put both ​the ?go base map and the ?go javduel map into pub with their respective matchbots and watch activity start to increase. Do it tomorrow.
    4:Best> pressure was a terr for halloween 4:Best> guy had 4 dudes on him attached

    4:Siaxis> what time is it in zimbobwe para?

    4:Children> every morning i wake up, look in the mirror and thank god i'm not paradise

    4:Best> Mighty's forehead has wifi

    4:Mighty> u guys ever eat a ketchup sandwich?

    4:sphinx> mighty fought a raccoon in an alley for some bbq chips

    4:RaCka> so what if paradise is dressing up as a slim jim for halloween?

  8. #48
    give life, take death qan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pressure View Post
    Staff, I know you are busy, but TW is really the worst it has ever been atm. Put both ​the ?go base map and the ?go javduel map into pub with their respective matchbots and watch activity start to increase. Do it tomorrow.
    I think most of us are on the same page that this is generally the direction we probably need to go for the future, but at the same time it's really not as simple as just putting the bots in the same arena. Allow me to explain a little bit about how these bots work.

    • All game-running bots assume they're the only bot running a game in the arena. (Pub, bwjs, elim, hockey, event bots, etc.) So:
    • They assume that every event that occurs relates to them specifically. Events include player deaths, ship changes, locations, etc. So javduel will assume that every death is a death in javduel.
    • More importantly, they also generally execute actions as if they're the only bot in the arena. So bwjs will set all players to a certain ship at the start of the round. Pub will warp all players at round start, and will recognize commands from people in a pub wbduel game, such as challenging someone to a duel or buying an item. There are so many special cases that have to be accounted for that don't seem immediately obvious, but become serious issues when you deal with the actual implementation.


    This means that pretty much every single line of code in the bots that would run in the same arena has to be examined. In this case the bots are BWJS and PubSystem. Let me break it down. PubSystem is roughly 10000 lines of code. BWJS is about 6500. So someone (that is to say, me) will need to review about 16500 lines of code. And then resolve all conflicts in an intelligent way. Then there will be a few months of bugfixes and exploits to resolve.

    I already have a full-time job, and despite that, I still work pretty damn hard at TW. I receive no money for anything, as you know. (I don't want any, but that's sort of beside the point.) I wish it were as simple as "do it tomorrow" but it's really not. You may be beginning to see why I'm a little frustrated that pretty much nobody seems willing to lift a finger to help out on, say, the Steam relaunch, but still expect this kind of stuff done tomorrow. It's demoralizing. There's a simple reality behind a lot of this stuff, which is that we're all volunteers (whether staff or players), and that we all have lives outside spaceships.

    Maybe we can get a donation drive going (the server fund's going to run out of money pretty soon anyway) and that would maybe motivate me to tackle this project. Talked to voth about it a little. But you know what would be a lot more motivating? If more people actually took it on themselves to help out rather than expecting everything to be done for them.
    "You're a gentleman," they used to say to him. "You shouldn't have gone murdering people with a hatchet; that's no occupation for a gentleman."
    -Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment

  9. #49
    Registered User Ricko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qan View Post
    and that we all have lives outside spaceships.
    Thix/Pressure doesn't.

    Reason for edit: Put Thix's irl first name on here and he cried
    Last edited by Ricko; 02-09-2017 at 11:11 AM.
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  10. #50
    Registered User Pressure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qan View Post
    I think most of us are on the same page that this is generally the direction we probably need to go for the future, but at the same time it's really not as simple as just putting the bots in the same arena. Allow me to explain a little bit about how these bots work.

    • All game-running bots assume they're the only bot running a game in the arena. (Pub, bwjs, elim, hockey, event bots, etc.) So:
    • They assume that every event that occurs relates to them specifically. Events include player deaths, ship changes, locations, etc. So javduel will assume that every death is a death in javduel.
    • More importantly, they also generally execute actions as if they're the only bot in the arena. So bwjs will set all players to a certain ship at the start of the round. Pub will warp all players at round start, and will recognize commands from people in a pub wbduel game, such as challenging someone to a duel or buying an item. There are so many special cases that have to be accounted for that don't seem immediately obvious, but become serious issues when you deal with the actual implementation.


    This means that pretty much every single line of code in the bots that would run in the same arena has to be examined. In this case the bots are BWJS and PubSystem. Let me break it down. PubSystem is roughly 10000 lines of code. BWJS is about 6500. So someone (that is to say, me) will need to review about 16500 lines of code. And then resolve all conflicts in an intelligent way. Then there will be a few months of bugfixes and exploits to resolve.

    I already have a full-time job, and despite that, I still work pretty damn hard at TW. I receive no money for anything, as you know. (I don't want any, but that's sort of beside the point.) I wish it were as simple as "do it tomorrow" but it's really not. You may be beginning to see why I'm a little frustrated that pretty much nobody seems willing to lift a finger to help out on, say, the Steam relaunch, but still expect this kind of stuff done tomorrow. It's demoralizing. There's a simple reality behind a lot of this stuff, which is that we're all volunteers (whether staff or players), and that we all have lives outside spaceships.

    Maybe we can get a donation drive going (the server fund's going to run out of money pretty soon anyway) and that would maybe motivate me to tackle this project. Talked to voth about it a little. But you know what would be a lot more motivating? If more people actually took it on themselves to help out rather than expecting everything to be done for them.
    Thanks for the reply. I simply don't know how to code nor do I have time myself. Get others on staff to step up. I didn't sign up for staff for a reason, and I only make the suggestions because I'm watching the zone die. I always thought TW would last way longer than EG, but it seems that EG will be the last zone standing at this rate. Not knocking your effort, you're probably the only thing keeping TW together at this point, which is a shame. Perhaps you can advertise for people to help in pub in the zone rather than on forums considering that no one really views these forums and you may get lucky with someone in pub who doesn't post here. Sorry to have expected immediate results despite you having little time and doing this for no pay, but I will say that I voice this idea when staff did have the manpower to get this done, an they blew it off, and now the zone is worse than ever. I hope you find a way to make it work, wish I could help...
    4:Best> pressure was a terr for halloween 4:Best> guy had 4 dudes on him attached

    4:Siaxis> what time is it in zimbobwe para?

    4:Children> every morning i wake up, look in the mirror and thank god i'm not paradise

    4:Best> Mighty's forehead has wifi

    4:Mighty> u guys ever eat a ketchup sandwich?

    4:sphinx> mighty fought a raccoon in an alley for some bbq chips

    4:RaCka> so what if paradise is dressing up as a slim jim for halloween?

  11. #51
    who u Crescent Seal's Avatar
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    Qan, you and Wirah are literally the only people left still working to maintain and revive this game at this point and much for it. The unfortunate reality however is that people are reluctant to donate or help in any capacity because there is no official communication from upper staff about virtually anything. Majority of the public is kept in the dark and the few of us who happen to check forums see these updates from you alone. This isn't a current trend either, the upper staffers have literally done nothing for years now except for occupying the top positions in staff. Its a combination of incompetence and negligence. It has gotten to a point where we have basically accepted their faggotry and are waiting for the inevitable.

    On a second note, we should actually use the donation money and hire a coder or pay the few we have left for these projects.
    1:Rasaq> i scrub really hard with toilet paper so little pieces of it get stuck to my anus hair and then later on when im watching tv i like to pull them out slowly because it feels pretty good

    1:Mutalisk> heard that n1111ga okyo got some DSLs

    5:Eggboy32> easier is to pee in bucket and drop it on ur head and let it soak down

    Paradise> No names but there's actually a black man in the arena right now.

    Jones> MAAAAN1111GA UCHIHA

    Klean-X> because i am armenian
    wicket666> its american

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pressure View Post
    Staff, I know you are busy, but TW is really the worst it has ever been atm. Put both ​the ?go base map and the ?go javduel map into pub with their respective matchbots and watch activity start to increase. Do it tomorrow.

    This +1
    3:kyler> who r u btw i keep wanting to ask people "who is 45th pres" but someone gonna say "trump"
    3:45th President> do it
    kyler> who is 45th President
    nah> donald j trump

    Downfall> Shoutout to forwards for randomly giving gunsmith results that made no sense and just made things harder

    Jacklyn> holster is the thing that holds/carry the gun

  13. #53
    give life, take death qan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pressure View Post
    Thanks for the reply. I simply don't know how to code nor do I have time myself. Get others on staff to step up. I didn't sign up for staff for a reason, and I only make the suggestions because I'm watching the zone die. I always thought TW would last way longer than EG, but it seems that EG will be the last zone standing at this rate. Not knocking your effort, you're probably the only thing keeping TW together at this point, which is a shame. Perhaps you can advertise for people to help in pub in the zone rather than on forums considering that no one really views these forums and you may get lucky with someone in pub who doesn't post here.
    Sorry, didn't mean to go off on you or anything. It's just frustrating. There are no other active bot coders on staff ... just me these days. (EDIT: 24 is actually doing some seriously good work on a very cool project. Mostly I mean in terms of anyone who is working on the existing bots. Also Wirah may still be doing some webdev I think.) There's nobody else to ask. Some people are interested in coding, but lack the ability/motivation to get much work done. What we need are the young kids who will beat their brains against the wall over and over again to try to learn it because they really want to make something happen.

    I hope you find a way to make it work, wish I could help...
    There are ways that anyone can help. I've been trying to get people to help on the Steam forum. You're right that a lot of people don't check forums, need to switch it up a bit, some zoners or the like.

    One that really got to me is the key configuration for Steam. It's one of those things that anyone could do. Did anyone even try? No. It fell to me again. So while I could have been working on something that only I can do, such as something like this project (I'm still thinking of ways I could make it easier to implement), I've got to spend time doing something anyone could do, but that still nobody is willing to do. And even after all that, I have to put up with people saying I don't do enough.

    However, there's some stuff that I actually can't do myself:
    - Doing fresh Steam installs on a variety of operating systems, with and without administrator privileges. This is gonna be really important before relaunch. Will make a big push for it soon, once a lot of things are finalized.
    - Usability tests with friends, family, etc. Have them install and try to figure out the game, report back results. Hell, have your mom try the game. Made a thread for it, nobody gives a damn enough to help yet, but maybe with some regular zoners in the game people will actually step up
    - Writing Steam reviews. Could always use more to bolster our rating.
    Last edited by qan; 02-09-2017 at 05:25 PM.
    "You're a gentleman," they used to say to him. "You shouldn't have gone murdering people with a hatchet; that's no occupation for a gentleman."
    -Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment

  14. #54
    give life, take death qan's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Crescent Seal;903438]Qan, you and Wirah are literally the only people left still working to maintain and revive this game at this point and much
    "You're a gentleman," they used to say to him. "You shouldn't have gone murdering people with a hatchet; that's no occupation for a gentleman."
    -Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment

  15. #55
    give life, take death qan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crescent Seal View Post
    Qan, you and Wirah are literally the only people left still working to maintain and revive this game at this point and much for it. The unfortunate reality however is that people are reluctant to donate or help in any capacity because there is no official communication from upper staff about virtually anything. Majority of the public is kept in the dark and the few of us who happen to check forums see these updates from you alone. This isn't a current trend either, the upper staffers have literally done nothing for years now except for occupying the top positions in staff. Its a combination of incompetence and negligence. It has gotten to a point where we have basically accepted their faggotry and are waiting for the inevitable.
    Damnit, forums ate my post. Hahahh. Jesus that sucks ... the rare time I don't select all-copy before I post on a forum.


    You're right, we should communicate more. I need to start doing zoners linking to forum posts at the very least. The short of it, though, is just doing the work is a lot of effort.


    The reason upper staff is so disorganized is that it's a volunteer system. People have lives and those lives get crazy. When you lose your job, someone in the family dies, you get a divorce, you have a baby, you get married, start a new job, etc., you often leave off working on the spaceship game. Staff in general, as a volunteer system, is extremely chaotic. It's hard to keep it remotely organized. So I accept the charges that we're incompetent and negligent, but I say... yeah, so? How do you expect it to work? If someone's wife dies they take 2 weeks bereavement leave. But they come back after because they need to work to survive. But they don't come back to their volunteer job as Spaceship Game Coordinator. And then we're left scrambling to find someone to fill their shoes. Lucky to keep someone in an upper staff position for 6 months. Sometimes they just disappear, and can't pass on their knowledge to the next guy. So, yes, incompetence and negligence, sure, but it's a volunteer team. So allow me to add, on the non-staff community side, ignorance of how the system works. Not really sure what you can expect out of a free game that has survived literally by the effort of the community alone. Just about every other game has a staff. We don't. We have players.


    On a second note, we should actually use the donation money and hire a coder or pay the few we have left for these projects.
    Donation details stopped updating, but allow me to say, aside from one issue with a small server being bought and then not used for its intended purpose, all donation money has been used to keep the zone going. The bot/web/forum server costs $100 a month, and basically that's what donations have been used for for years. (Thanks to everyone who has pitched in over the years.) Now we actually have less than a year left of server costs in the account and will have to do a donation drive pretty soon.


    The idea of hiring a coder's been brought up a lot. I think it might be a smart move. It's just whether or not we can get maybe $10K to hire a very smart but desperate college kid, and whether or not said college kid would be reliable enough to be worth our while. I'm not interested in getting Indian coders in. Someone else can look at that if they want to. Way too expensive though.
    "You're a gentleman," they used to say to him. "You shouldn't have gone murdering people with a hatchet; that's no occupation for a gentleman."
    -Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment

  16. #56
    who u Crescent Seal's Avatar
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    Given their track record, it seems like upper staff face a personal calamity like you mentioned on a daily basis LOL. If people cannot do their jobs (yes even volunteer ones) due to incompetence, no time, personal issues, etc. then they should simply quit their positions. Remaining absolutely useless just so you have the ability to alias check from time to time does this game no good. Anyways, we have simply reached a stage where all we can do is be disgruntled about the atrocious staff infrastructure.
    1:Rasaq> i scrub really hard with toilet paper so little pieces of it get stuck to my anus hair and then later on when im watching tv i like to pull them out slowly because it feels pretty good

    1:Mutalisk> heard that n1111ga okyo got some DSLs

    5:Eggboy32> easier is to pee in bucket and drop it on ur head and let it soak down

    Paradise> No names but there's actually a black man in the arena right now.

    Jones> MAAAAN1111GA UCHIHA

    Klean-X> because i am armenian
    wicket666> its american

  17. #57
    give life, take death qan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crescent Seal View Post
    Given their track record, it seems like upper staff face a personal calamity like you mentioned on a daily basis LOL. If people cannot do their jobs (yes even volunteer ones) due to incompetence, no time, personal issues, etc. then they should simply quit their positions. Remaining absolutely useless just so you have the ability to alias check from time to time does this game no good. Anyways, we have simply reached a stage where all we can do is be disgruntled about the atrocious staff infrastructure.
    That's exactly what happens. They quit or are fired. But if you think that a person who suddenly has a huge amount of free time and incredible motivation just magically replaces them, you're living outside the bounds of reality. To do most upper staff jobs properly you need to put in several hours a day and much of your weekends. Every single day of every single week, without fail. No breaks. Not even a paying job demands you come to work every day.


    So considering there's no pay, you have to work every day, almost nobody will thank you for your work, and meanwhile most people in the community will tell you that you're doing a terrible job regardless of how much effort you put in or how much it's actually your fault, the candidate pool is ... pretty limited. I'm amazed anyone does it at all. Imagining there are hundreds of masochistic martyrs waiting in the wings to step up and Make Trench Wars Great Again is delusional. Imagining there ever have been is delusional. I've quit staff I don't know how many times in frustration over the political garbage. I've tried on two different occasions to implement some kind of a democratic system. But it's never worked out. It's just too volatile to be anything but a very loose organization, with all the flaws you'd expect. I've come to believe, after seeing it work and not work something like 12 years now, that most of it really can't be helped. And because I've been able to accept that, I can quit bitching about it, take a deep breath, and try to do something productive, despite the flaws.


    Also, to add, alias checking without a reason has been off-limits for years. And it's all logged. This applies to everyone. People ask me who someone is and I can't tell them not just because it's considered abuse to share the info (it naturally is; please report anyone who is sharing alias info to me or Beasty), but because I don't actually know unless I've had to investigate them for some reason.
    "You're a gentleman," they used to say to him. "You shouldn't have gone murdering people with a hatchet; that's no occupation for a gentleman."
    -Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment

  18. #58
    give life, take death qan's Avatar
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    Thinking of ways to do the OP idea still... It's a little nuts but theoretically we could create a second, specialized version of the way the bots see the arena. So a player can use a command to one bot and join its arena, and the other bots forget about you as a player entirely, don't recognize you as a player in the arena.

    Some stuff to work out like how to handle receiving PMs when the bot doesn't have a record of you as a player, but theoretically, it might work, and could let us run pub, bwjs and even elim all in one place. Anything dealing with non-pub would probably need to send freq messages instead of arenas, except for when advertising a game.
    "You're a gentleman," they used to say to him. "You shouldn't have gone murdering people with a hatchet; that's no occupation for a gentleman."
    -Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment

  19. #59
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    Is there any way to even out the frequencies when it's 5v2 or similar?

  20. #60
    ` Jones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qan View Post
    That's exactly what happens. They quit or are fired. But if you think that a person who suddenly has a huge amount of free time and incredible motivation just magically replaces them, you're living outside the bounds of reality. To do most upper staff jobs properly you need to put in several hours a day and much of your weekends. Every single day of every single week, without fail. No breaks. Not even a paying job demands you come to work every day.
    You have seen what upper-staffers do. you have quit before because of things I really don't know about. what I do know about is that several great staffers have either quit or been fired because of the terrible decisions (or lack thereof) by upper-staffers. i mean how do you make people like ph or turban quit because of terrible upper-management?

    Reckless was also a highly-motivated person to do a thankless job and now he hates tw staff as the plague.

    love the work you do, though. xoxo
    Quote Originally Posted by jerome
    can we stop and wonder in amazement at the fact that we play a VIDEO GAME that has "generations"???

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