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Thread: Trench Wars Pub & Zone REVITALIZATION - Need your feedback

  1. #81
    zeebu 'DUMPTRUCK' johnson Zeebu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leland View Post
    here's another idea GET RID OF ALL THE SPECTATORS .

    if you dont play gtfo
    imwatchingyou


    1996 Minnesota State Pooping Champion

  2. #82
    give life, take death qan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessup View Post
    A quick /!fruitstats and you will see why slots are known as one armed bandits :P I will play but only short spats in hopes of a nice win.
    You can see that the percentage won by the house is now a lot smaller, but interestingly, now that the odds are significantly better, people seem to play much more, so that the overall amount lost is actually larger (even if the ratio of wins to losses is more narrow than ever).

    I played fatrolls and sawyers poker arena in EG the other day. Looked good! Would love to see that added to twpubsystems casino and have a table installed in corner of pub map. It's currently installed in EG. I thought it was pretty cool as you turn and fire your ship different directions to bet, call, fold or raise. If it can't be put in pub let's add a Trench Wars casino arena!
    It's a pretty cool bot, and we actually have it in TW as well. There are a few issues with it, though. The biggest is that it doesn't follow the rules of poker all that well. For example, after the final player calls, it still goes to the next player, so that you can still raise afterward. It's very strange. There's also only very limited tournament support, meaning they're cash games, and you're playing with all your money. Couple that with the lack of ability to enter your bet numerically, the fact that the ship rotation controls bet without actually telling you how much you're betting, and that you can easily go all in accidentally with every single spacedollar you possess and it becomes basically unusable. It could certainly be updated by someone who wants to take it on, though. Any Java coders out there who also like poker?
    "You're a gentleman," they used to say to him. "You shouldn't have gone murdering people with a hatchet; that's no occupation for a gentleman."
    -Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment

  3. #83
    MORE COWBELL! Kontrolz's Avatar
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    What's the point of all these changes if people just sign in, enter a ship on a public team, and then go afk?

    Get the basics right first.

    This game has a crippling afk problem. It didn't used to matter if half a team was afk for 30 minutes because there were multiple pub arenas and sub-arenas running. Instead of exiting the client and doing something else people would just change arenas. Now there is 1 arena running 99.9% of the time so when the afkers kill the action people just exit the client.

    If the goal is to have a high population you are going to have to reconsider the public arena's "chill" status and think about making it more of an automated game that handles afkers automatically along with team-balance issues (like most modern games). The people who log in and do nothing will continue to do so no matter what you change. However, the people who want to actually play the game with intense flag fights and teamwork do not stick around when it's dead. The primary focus should be keeping the players who base in the arena.

    A dream scenario would be no private teams, no levs, and automated games that spec afkers and auto-shuffleteams after X amount of rounds. I know this won't ever happen though because the people in charge would rather watch the zone die than dare touch lev/private team settings for fear of getting yelled at.

    If you want to be stubborn and insist that pub is about everyone doing their own thing then watch your small population get spread even thinner until all that's left are the afkers and the bobrs, just don't pretend it wasn't avoidable.
    (ZaBuZa)>sigh.. i been playing this game since i was 8... i am more mature then ull ever be...

  4. #84
    Registered User olde's Avatar
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    I love qan! Fine work you do sir much appreciated! I'll have cres send nudes xD

  5. #85
    give life, take death qan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kontrolz
    If the goal is to have a high population you are going to have to reconsider the public arena's "chill" status and think about making it more of an automated game that handles afkers automatically along with team-balance issues (like most modern games). The people who log in and do nothing will continue to do so no matter what you change. However, the people who want to actually play the game with intense flag fights and teamwork do not stick around when it's dead. The primary focus should be keeping the players who base in the arena.

    A dream scenario would be no private teams, no levs, and automated games that spec afkers and auto-shuffleteams after X amount of rounds. I know this won't ever happen though because the people in charge would rather watch the zone die than dare touch lev/private team settings for fear of getting yelled at.

    If you want to be stubborn and insist that pub is about everyone doing their own thing then watch your small population get spread even thinner until all that's left are the afkers and the bobrs, just don't pretend it wasn't avoidable.
    It might seem like those kinds of changes would lead to a higher population. But the thing is, the game has, after so many years, taken on a very definite tone. Pub is pub is pub. For better or worse. It's highly resistant to tampering, from what I've seen.

    Here's a good example of what I mean. Even when we've allowed shuffle voting, after some time we had to disable it, because most of the time, it caused around 30-40% of the arena to spec (usually most of the freq that was winning before the shuffle). TW players are very resistant to being messed with, after being left alone for so long. They have an expectation of what the game is, and play it because it offers something familiar and comforting in a world that is constantly changing. The fact that TW doesn't really change much is perhaps its greatest weakness, but also its greatest strength.

    Only a few serious basers play pub anymore. Many people on these forums consider playing pub as something contemptible, utterly beneath them. (I don't have much respect for these people, you might be able to guess.) New players don't have much of an example to look up to. We could try to turn it essentially into a loose-form ?go base game (that's been the general push ever since the timer was introduced ages ago), but at this point we've come too far with the model we have. I don't think it would be just "backlash" but actually a significantly reduced number of players. What you describe might be your dream scenario for pub, but it's not for a lot of people who play. Your assumption is that those people would continue to play if we went toward a more rigid style. From what I've seen over the years, this really just isn't the case. Yes, basing is arguably the core of TW pub. But forcing it to happen is like trying to coerce a group of cats into have a tea party.

    One compromise has been to allow people to !buy special modes, such as purepub. In exchange for "participation points" (spacedollars), players are given ability to affect how the game is played for a short time. Could maybe make a !buy to disallow private freqs as well, other than during duels.

    One thing I can definitely look at is tightening up AFK checks a bit more, though.
    "You're a gentleman," they used to say to him. "You shouldn't have gone murdering people with a hatchet; that's no occupation for a gentleman."
    -Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment

  6. #86
    MORE COWBELL! Kontrolz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qan View Post
    Here's a good example of what I mean. Even when we've allowed shuffle voting, after some time we had to disable it, because most of the time, it caused around 30-40% of the arena to spec (usually most of the freq that was winning before the shuffle). TW players are very resistant to being messed with, after being left alone for so long. They have an expectation of what the game is, and play it because it offers something familiar and comforting in a world that is constantly changing. The fact that TW doesn't really change much is perhaps its greatest weakness, but also its greatest strength.
    When teams get so uneven that shufflevote is needed (and voted for) teams crash like that anyway. Whether you force shuffle them or wait the extra round that it takes for the only team basing to get bored and leave. I feel that isn't a very good example and that your point is incorrect. The people that are left (in pub) are the ones that CAN'T quit, or they would have by now. In fact, I remember this argument of "we can't change pub or people will leave" being the exact argument that was brought up when we tried to lobby for timed games in pub, and even pub bux.

    Also, the people that think "pub is pub is pub" and don't want anything changed so they can continue to lev and tk, or afk on public teams, or just troll in general are the very people that you don't want around anyway. They are the ones who don't care if 20 people are playing or 4 people are playing because it's all the same to them. They make the "serious basers" leave with their tking and general uselessness.


    Quote Originally Posted by qan
    One thing I can definitely look at is tightening up AFK checks a bit more, though.
    Honestly, if that's all that comes out of my post I would be happy. This is probably the biggest, most glaring problem atm. I know you are basically the only person that's capable/willing to do things like this anymore so the fact that you even spend time on the forums and bother replying is something I don't take for granted. I really wish you would try to look at pub from a fresh perspective though.




    Typically, when the game crashes it's because basing just died. We need to find ways to stop basing from dying, whatever that is. I think we all agree on that. So what kills basing and how do we stop it? Uneven teams and afkers are the biggest culprits. We can crack down on afkers but how to crack down on keeping teams even without mandating shuffle after X amount of consecutive wins by one team?
    (ZaBuZa)>sigh.. i been playing this game since i was 8... i am more mature then ull ever be...

  7. #87
    give life, take death qan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kontrolz View Post
    When teams get so uneven that shufflevote is needed (and voted for) teams crash like that anyway. Whether you force shuffle them or wait the extra round that it takes for the only team basing to get bored and leave. I feel that isn't a very good example and that your point is incorrect. The people that are left (in pub) are the ones that CAN'T quit, or they would have by now. In fact, I remember this argument of "we can't change pub or people will leave" being the exact argument that was brought up when we tried to lobby for timed games in pub, and even pub bux.

    Also, the people that think "pub is pub is pub" and don't want anything changed so they can continue to lev and tk, or afk on public teams, or just troll in general are the very people that you don't want around anyway. They are the ones who don't care if 20 people are playing or 4 people are playing because it's all the same to them. They make the "serious basers" leave with their tking and general uselessness.
    I understand your frustration, and agree that basing is central to pub, but at the same time, I don't agree that everything else should be subverted to it. That's just my personal philosophy. One of the things I've always loved about pub is its freedom. If people want to have WB duels at south safe or just spawnkill, they should be able to do it without getting criticized for it, because there's literally nothing wrong with it. Sure, if that guy wasn't in his solo Lev, slowly coming up a side tube to lob an ineffective bomb at cram and TK a couple of people, maybe your team would be better off. (And making a few TKs beyond the occasional, accidental ones is against the rules.) But it's this chaos and ability to "make your own game" that's made TW pub a sort of legendary relic of gaming, rarely seen in games anymore -- especially action games.

    If it means that sometimes "serious basers" can't get a game going because of this, I still believe that unfortunately, that's the price that must be paid. We could force round-start warps, disable private frequencies, disable Levis, disable weasels and anything else that "serious basers" have a problem with. We could just force people into Terr, Shark or Spider, too, because any other ship is arguably a bit of a drain on serious basing. We could disable buys because they're too disruptive. Etc., etc. But all that saps some of the joy out of pub, and adds a level of responsibility that I don't think everyone wants. Some people, but not all. Perhaps this is why a lot of people don't take pub seriously -- but there's nothing to take seriously, as pub isn't about anything, including basing. There is no goal to it. It's one thing I've always loved about it. And I think it's one of the things that make TW so accessible to new players. We should talk about ways we can improve play for everyone, but I don't think the way to do that is by further restricting play in one of the few places that has succeeded because it doesn't insist on doing so.

    We need to find ways to stop basing from dying, whatever that is. I think we all agree on that. So what kills basing and how do we stop it? Uneven teams and afkers are the biggest culprits. We can crack down on afkers but how to crack down on keeping teams even without mandating shuffle after X amount of consecutive wins by one team?
    I reduced deaths without firing leading to a disconnect to 5 from 8, and I'm experimentally adding !afkcheck for players (2 people need to !afkcheck and then it should send a challenge code to the person). Also increased the reward for !switch to $1400 from $750, maybe enough to get people interested. Unfortunately it's extremely hard to balance teams in terms of "most of freq 0 wants to base, and freq 1 is spawnkilling/pubdueling/has 2 Levis/has a Weasel in the maze/has a Shark mining tube". It's hard to fix that. In terms of raw numbers being imbalanced, we can work with that. For example, if !switch isn't offered enough it has some parameters that can be tweaked.

    As for just keeping basing going, tried a lot of things over the years, little things. Most recently, these have included: terr bonus for a single terr on a public freq. Ship suggestions at the end of the round, if Terr/Shark is missing. Ability for players on a team to sponsor a terr or sponsor a shark, giving them $X at regular intervals, to let them buy items and to show your appreciation. As for annoying TKers, the increase to $500 for a TK hasn't worked miracles, but it definitely seems to keep people from firing aimlessly, especially Levis, while still allowing them to be reported for it. The ideal methods (IMO) create incentives for desired behavior, and deincentivize things that are seen as not contributing to the health of pub. Rather than outright forcing a method of gameplay.

    If you have any ideas for incentives, I think those are the least controversial, and can easily be added without a lot of debate. They can also be surprisingly effective.
    "You're a gentleman," they used to say to him. "You shouldn't have gone murdering people with a hatchet; that's no occupation for a gentleman."
    -Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment

  8. #88
    Registered User Tone's Avatar
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    Give Jim Carey a ride on ship and ask him to do commercial for TW

    I let Jim drive for a while, here is how he did:


    mbox failed. new mp3 hotlinking website at Kiwi6.

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