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Thread: Looking for Constructive Input and Opinions

  1. #21
    Registered User Bosshawk's Avatar
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    i was in that game and it was exceptionally frustrating lol
    Women will never be equal to men until they can walk down the street with a bald head and a beer gut, and still think they are sexy.

  2. #22
    give life, take death qan's Avatar
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    Re: win buying, I remember coming back after a hiatus from staff and seeing pubbux had been put in. I wasn't a big fan, but you have to change with the times; once put in place, it created its own ecosystem, an unstoppable momentum that couldn't be reversed without players quitting in frustration that staff had stolen something that is theirs.

    This is just one example of how pub has evolved organically over the years and through many hands, sometimes for better, sometimes for worse. It's impossible to say who "made" pub. There is no designer, and no design.

    To get back to pubbux, one positive effect is it's made duels matter more. It also garnered a fair share of extra donations, which allowed players to essentially buy pubbux, and those donations have kept the bot/webserver going for years and years. But yes, it gives some wealthy players a bit too much control over how pub's played.

    I've made my peace with it (justified it as a pubbux apologist?) with this rationale: pubbux represents investment of your time (or in some cases real money) in pub. By spending this "time," you can have some agency over how pub is played, which could be argued is fair because you've demonstrated your commitment to keeping it alive.

    We've had times in pub when you can essentially buy nothing, or it's all prohibitively expensive. We've had times when it's cheap as dirt and you needed to macro full charge just to have a chance at competing. Times when you need to be in certain places to buy (defending terrs still can't buy port/burst inside FR, for example), etc. A million things have been tried over the years.

    As I understand it, the pub over the years has been an ever-flawed, ever-changing attempt at a balance between freedom, competition and fun.

    Freedom: players can play whatever ship they'd like, and they can play however they'd like. While the flag game is the center of the game, it's not the "goal" of pub. There is no real goal to pub other than enjoying yourself. If you want to duel, if you want to spawnkill, if you want to have intense flag games, if you want to roofjav, if you want to weasel, if you want to mine tube, if you want to LT ... these are all recognized parts of pub. Just as you can't change a single tile in competitive basing, you also can't change certain fundamental aspects of pub without upsetting a huge part of the population. So we compromise a lot in the name of freedom. We like to say "you can't do that" as little as possible.

    Competition: obviously without a competitive element, pub would become boring. When I pub, it's pretty much always to base. Again, yes, the flag game is the center of pub. But that said, it is not the entirety of pub, and to believe it is so is to make a serious mistake. For example, if we wanted to have more competitive basing, we could limit players from being able to play anything but Terr, Shark and Spider. But this too heavily skews things in favor of strong competition, greatly depriving freedom and sapping out all the fun of it. Which brings me to the dreaded...

    Fun: what is considered "fun" is quite subjective. For the tryhard crowd it's only serious competition. (And personally, anymore this is the only thing I really enjoy in pub, though I used to enjoy dueling in base with small teams a few years back.) For others it's something entirely different. Fun includes some elements that are at cross-purposes to competition, such as spending a huge amount of money to thor the enemy team (or have your incredibly expensive warhead be repelled away harmlessly to the jeers of the enemy team). Or buying super. Or buying ballpower to try and get a L4 levi shot off. Or shooting off fireworks, buying beer, tea, playing rock-paper-scissors, etc.

    To reiterate, pub is an attempt to balance between these elements, which are often at war with one another. It doesn't always succeed, and sometimes it swings too heavily in favor of one vs the other. We've tried to implement solutions to allow people to counter some elements, such as being able to !deploy from inside base to the roof, to take care of LTs and roofjavs. (Or you can buy a roofterr.) Or keeping Levis off the roof at the round start in general so they can't pop the FR when people are warped in. If you're suffering from a lack of Terrs, you can !st to sponsor one. If you really are disgusted with levis, you can buy purepub -- though they can also now cancel this for a ridiculous amount.

    The important thing to remember is that your style of play is not the only one being catered to. Pub's for everyone, for the general public, and for the most part, what the public wants is what goes. It's silly, frustrating and competitive in turns. One giant series of compromises between a hundred different styles of play. That means almost nobody's going to be happy.

    Such is life.
    "You're a gentleman," they used to say to him. "You shouldn't have gone murdering people with a hatchet; that's no occupation for a gentleman."
    -Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment

  3. #23
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    I think it's hilarious that you can do those things and that it annoys certain people/certain types of people. One thing I didn't see anyone mention is how there's a trade off between balance and skill that you can't numerically compute or at least I can't. Are levs overpowered because they're strong against poor coordination/communication? Maybe you can say the bomb is huge range and huge damage but, to move the ship anywhere takes a lot of time. There's some balance between skill, innate mechanics, and teamwork that makes it possible to fall into a range of acceptable balance. People just complain but you need actual stats to put up real numbers and analyze player deaths and kills etc to find where the balance lies. Then you're limited by what you can actually change. Like you can't reduce the bomb's range slightly? maybe 7.5-10%? That seems to be the biggest issue lol: not being able to implement the changes we need to.

    As for the state of Pub who knows.. I feel like more things to have and play with are better.. there are so many vanilla competitive options there is nothing really fun where u can let lose and be chill. You can buy buyblock, or just fight it out. Did the troops storming Normandy know what faced them and have exactly perfect odds? It's Trench Wars.. and it's also whatever atmosphere qan wants it. He doesn't have to change anything but he's willing to listen to ideas that fit with the overall theme and will work. So it's up to you to make a really great idea. Not trying to act like I know everything but I feel like 'good ideas' are really easy to understand and impelment. And really simple. Your idea might be brilliant but if it's so complicated who's to know.. plus people like what they know already. It's a good start to look at what are the thorns in the side which is why I agree about levs and think they should be nerfed some somehow.
    Last edited by Dierienow; Yesterday at 10:25 PM.

  4. #24
    give life, take death qan's Avatar
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    I could pull some specific stats if you know what you're looking for. Average K/D ratio of each ship?

    Reducing the bomb's radius isn't possible without affecting L1 bombs, unfortunately. L3 radius = L1 * 3. (L2 = L1 * 2) We tried Levis with L2 for quite a while. Might be time to go back to that again, with improved turn radius and more energy. Returning to L3 with reduced energy and bomb speed was kind of an experiment to see if we could retain the old massive bombs without making the ship too OP. But in the end it may have sacrificed too much.

    We could also look at giving Levis prox.

    The other setting available is a bounced bomb doing more/less damage. So possibly, if we reduced L1 bomb radius slightly to provide a reduction in L3, we could compensate by increasing damage for Jav bombs after they've bounced. The effect might be negligible. But it would also mean changing not one but two of the "untouchable" ships (1,2,3,5,7,8) which doesn't sit well with me because it would mean it would function differently than in other areas of the zone. Actually, I believe Shark could function almost exactly the same with an increase in EMP bomb damage (another setting) but it'd still be slightly different... and that's no good.

    For reference here's a list of SS settings + explanations behind each. Gives a better idea of what can and can't be done:
    https://github.com/fatrolls/subgame-...r/TEMPLATE.SSS


    Also, as for "it's whatever atmosphere qan wants" ... I really hope that's not the case. There are many things I dislike about pub but that I don't change, because what I want personally isn't remotely important. I really do try to aggregate opinions and represent what people think is the right direction to move in. This is why it's difficult to just go on one person's idea, unless they make a great argument and it's clearly an improvement. If not, I might think it's a good idea, but if nobody else but me and the poster think so, perhaps it's not so good after all.
    "You're a gentleman," they used to say to him. "You shouldn't have gone murdering people with a hatchet; that's no occupation for a gentleman."
    -Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment

  5. #25
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    Qan I see where you're coming from, and I agree pubbux have been good for things like dueling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Claushouse View Post

    2) We're having a competitive match and someone Thors our entire team

    3) We're having a competitive match and someone Thors the enemies entire team
    but maybe there is some middle-ground when it comes to thors.
    I just tested pub and there is only a 3-minute wait time after buying a thor, even if you attempt to buy it multiple times in a row.


    What if we just extended the wait time 10-15 minutes so it could be used more strategically once/twice per game, rather than spammed everytime a team is losing the flagroom?

  6. #26
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    Throughout the years the pro-pub bucks people always neatly side stepped the true detrimental design effect; pub bucks gave experienced players an advantage. There is no debate about this, it is true (which is probably why the pro-pub bucks folks avoid talking about it).

    Given this, the issue then turns to, ‘what is the point of the Pub arena’? If one ignores the fact that this arena is where every new players enters into, then giving an advantage to experienced players is just fine. Another factor is that new players had/have no real advocates or voice, so it was easy to ignore them and support the mouthy ‘vets’ who used Pub for ‘fun’.

    In my opinion Pub, as the beginning arena for new players, should have always had the primary design criteria in giving the new players an advantage. Just like every other game in the world, as a player gets more experience they should encounter more difficult levels and challenges. Having a introduction level available for experienced players to own at will was bad enough, but then giving them extra advantages on top of this complete overkill and unnecessary.

    And of course there was also the issue with Pub being the ‘catch-all’ for every good idea that was ever considered. Good or bad, new things were always introduced into Pub since it was considered a good/efficient test bed since it typically had plenty of players.

    Even if the code base supported an experienced player advantage ‘vets’ were not required to use it. Because I played a lot of Pub I always had huge amounts of pub bucks and never bought endless amounts of reps of other things which would have given me even more advantages over less experienced players. So selfishness is the real culprit. I also place a fair amount of blame on the staffers would often seemed delighted in using Pub for selfish ego boosts. Staffers who should have shown some leadership, vision, and self-control by helping the new player base instead of owning them. They displayed an awful example which other vets then used as an excuse for their own selfish justifications.

    But what is done is done and we cannot turn back time. Ideally Pub would have given new players extra weapons and strength. But the obvious flaw with that approach is again selfishness; some players would have just constantly made new player names just to get the extra ship attributes. People are always going to be lame and there no code in the world which changes that fact.
    Eph

  7. #27
    Registered User LucifersWarcraft's Avatar
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    Pub and the massive decline in new players is partly YOUR fault you fuck. You, Rab, Qan, ect. ect. have refused to listen to overwhelming majority that requested when entering TW for the first time or the 1 thousandth, they enter into ELIM. So they might wait to play for the first time for a few minutes. They get to watch others play though, get to feel the hype of maybe doing good when they get a chance to play, ect. Hell, they might actually read all that annoying ass green text you guys insist throwing at them!

    You know what is HUGE right now? Battle royals.. PUBG, FORTNITE, soon to be COD4 and BFV.. 100 people start and last one alive wins.

    Hmmm.. Sounds a fucking lot like ELIM? Second thought. Nah.. I am just crazy? LOL. \_("/)_/

    People sit and watch people die out over the time of a lengthy match with 0 problems with battle royal game modes. If you every played one of these games, you might litterally sit and watch for upwards for 45 mins depending on how soon you were eliminated, nothing compared to our elim matches in TW. And if they are impatient, they can just leave and try back later.

    You nailed every thing that is wrong with pub Eph and I love how you act like you played no part in it, just some poor supporter who had the answers this whole time and was ignored. You've been the biggest pusher of keeping new players coming into YOUR fucked up pub, to be beaten down brutally. I mean fucked up with all the new shit, from tiny spawn points, pubbux to buy shit and making rounds. You were among those who wanted to make Pub competitive, adding game rounds/matches, player end game shoutouts/stats ie. BasingKing/Queen when pub was NEVER meant to be competitive, it was meant to be a place to relax, chat with friends, play casual and generally goof off.

    You guys still stood there and like flaming hypocrites and despite the changes would still argue how pub isn't competitive, all while you and Rab stick your sausages up Qan's cheeks inserting notions to remove ships like Levi's and shit because it's lame to have in YOUR non-competitive pub.. Jesus Christ.

    Top off all the other induced cancer to pub and this game from you idiots, Qan made spawns in FR so the rate at which new players die is now 100% more than it ever was, just to make you "pro" pubbers feel great, collecting them pub bux to buy each other tea or fireworks, parading on the fact you guys are killing the game.

    I'd bet money we haven't had a single new player log in for over a year or w/e and none of the dudes from steam ever came back. I have over a dozen I tried to get to play this game and they straight up refuse because of how messy and confusing it it. I stopped trying to push SS on my friends and co-workers because of it. I work in the fucking game industry and I would be embarrassed to show this shit to my co-workers, least in the state it is in now and most likely will stay. I'd consider trying to claim rights for one of the studios I collab with to reboot it but this game has no owner, least one that you can contact, it has no billing ops anymore, servers are awful, most likely ones that are free.

    Least Qan has come to realize the truth that TWD is the only reason this game isn't dead, so that is something but it's annoying as fuck to read from you Eph in 2018 about shit we realized 10-15 years ago.. during a time when you loved killing newbs and making a pub tailored to you and protesting changes that would actually make this game accommodating to new players. I know this will indefinitely hurt your pussy, so sorry not sorry. Just wish you could of had this newfound logic along with everyone else so much sooner.

    Pub is cancer and I love it you are beginning to see the glaring issues you ignored for decades though bro, holy fuck LOL.

    -IxaDor
    Voted Trench War's "Rookie of the Year" - 2007-2008
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  8. #28
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    Last time I installed this game I had trouble getting Trench Wars to show green back in April or May. Other zones are permanently red no matter what I try. I wouldn't be surprised if this happened to others and basically nobody new could get into the game. And if they could get Trench Wars to go green then that's essentially step 1 out of 100 of becoming a returning player. I'm not sure if you can blame anyone here for that.

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