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Thread: Make TSL Great Again

  1. #21
    Major Crisis/Ownix Major Crisis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zidane View Post
    Twl could work based on what I've been seeing recently

    TWL could only work if Zombie and Envy split a little up imo.
    Major Crisis

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Major Crisis View Post
    TWL could only work if Zombie and Envy split a little up imo.
    This topic deserves its own thread

  3. #23
    2 good Tiny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldinho View Post
    My apologies Tiny , I know you sitted on Ease's face at the last final on Cobra side. You also spend many time at Ease's side before, champs with sk8 and Thunder. But you would also deserve a place on dicE, that's why I mentioned you on no team. You are a mercenary, you could join whatever team and win.

    As Ricko said it is not a "who's legend" thread (by the way sorry Ogron for derailing your thread), I just wanted to give an overview of how could look teams if we do a new TWL season.
    Apology accepted. It was fun hunting Ease out. Now he whines about getting targeted.
    1:waven> u challenge
    1:waven> if i challenge it looks too scary

    Quote Originally Posted by MHz View Post
    Hope you contract ebola from your, no doubt cheap, Easter Egg, you fucking shit-jav, pug-faced cunt.

  4. #24
    2 good Tiny's Avatar
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    I say TWL would work if you regulate like TWDT. Recruit whoever you want to, but you can only have X players per slot. Again for slow people, WHOEVER can join, but a limit to how many WHOEVERS in a particular league. Someone pick 5 10 star wbs...games over....and same for twlj, there is just not enough to go around 6x, 4 for that matter...
    1:waven> u challenge
    1:waven> if i challenge it looks too scary

    Quote Originally Posted by MHz View Post
    Hope you contract ebola from your, no doubt cheap, Easter Egg, you fucking shit-jav, pug-faced cunt.

  5. #25
    Sig Inspired By Dreamwin Claushouse's Avatar
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    The last TWL was S21, and it was unanimously considered the worst season in TWL history. There is a reason it's been dead for two years.

    The last regular season of TWL to be good was S17, where most of the regular season games were competitive, and it was fun.

    TWD completely dies every TWL in the last 5 years, it absolutely decimates activity without fail. TWDT was the league bringing people back after the zone would go on life support.

    And keep in mind, the worst season in TWL history still had the cores of Thunder, Dice, Cobra, and Force at least (although most Dice players had checked out mentally then quit)... you'd just have Thunder and Cobra players this time around.

    Most of the Dice and Force players are gone now. The Pene core was gone by S18 and Fierce quit after losing S20.

    I don't see the point of wasting 2 months playing noncompetitive regular season games, killing activity, then having Thunder and Cobra play a Final.

    My annoyance at what transpired in the S21 playoffs doesn't outweigh the objective assessment that S22 would be awful.

    If you went back in time and experienced S21 and the memories were fresh, we wouldn't be having this discussion. It was considered terrible the whole way through. We couldn't even get a TWD match to practice in the two weeks leading up to the final, that's how dead the zone was. You guys are like the person who gets back with their hot ex-girlfriend and is like "why did we ever break up again, she's so hot!" then 5 minutes in you remember she's a complete psycho who ruined your life, and you're like "oh yeah, that's why" and you're instantly filled with regret.
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  6. #26
    Major Crisis/Ownix Major Crisis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claushouse View Post
    The last TWL was S21, and it was unanimously considered the worst season in TWL history. There is a reason it's been dead for two years.

    The last regular season of TWL to be good was S17, where most of the regular season games were competitive, and it was fun.

    TWD completely dies every TWL in the last 5 years, it absolutely decimates activity without fail. TWDT was the league bringing people back after the zone would go on life support.

    And keep in mind, the worst season in TWL history still had the cores of Thunder, Dice, Cobra, and Force at least (although most Dice players had checked out mentally then quit)... you'd just have Thunder and Cobra players this time around.

    Most of the Dice and Force players are gone now. The Pene core was gone by S18 and Fierce quit after losing S20.

    I don't see the point of wasting 2 months playing noncompetitive regular season games, killing activity, then having Thunder and Cobra play a Final.

    My annoyance at what transpired in the S21 playoffs doesn't outweigh the objective assessment that S22 would be awful.

    If you went back in time and experienced S21 and the memories were fresh, we wouldn't be having this discussion. It was considered terrible the whole way through. We couldn't even get a TWD match to practice in the two weeks leading up to the final, that's how dead the zone was. You guys are like the person who gets back with their hot ex-girlfriend and is like "why did we ever break up again, she's so hot!" then 5 minutes in you remember she's a complete psycho who ruined your life, and you're like "oh yeah, that's why" and you're instantly filled with regret.

    You are missing the point here a little... Yea TWL would suck if you keep just with Zombie. Zombie atm is like Cobra and Thunder together.. Anyone who won something moved there and you can see it in the TWD games too, they are extremely boring. Or are you saying you enjoy playing games which end 50-30 all the time? I wouldnt be too surprised if you did... This goes beyond just 'TWL', twd aint even that fun either. It's really time that people split up, most of the games in TWDT are kinda fun. But I dont think running TWDT back to back would work. We have to think for something besides TWDT.. With all due respect, I dont think TSL is gonna work if you just keep those time slots. And still.. I think the vets you spoke to will prob quit TSL after that one season again. Forcing people to play with a random team every game often doesnt work. We could as well make javduel/wbduel/base get recorded better.. Prob has better teams and outcome.
    Major Crisis

  7. #27
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    Take the tsl $ formula add it to wb/jav duel add the top 3 or 5 players and thier squadname to a1 after every month and call it done.

  8. #28
    Hellrazor ronaldinho's Avatar
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    I disagree, we shouldn't add a * limitation, and 6 teams can play per leagues. But that's sure, not 6 team can be at a high level in every leagues, in my exemple :

    -Fierce : Geio in charge, he recruit many actual Envy members who won with Fierce (24, LaSenza, Dak, Tripin, Singer) and many of his actual e-buddies as kado and Major Crisis. This would make a mostly wb/jav team, can qualify in base too but not a favorite to final win. If they can bring some of Fierce old legends they could even be the very favorite in wb. Blind in TWDT, Envy in TWD, Fierce in TWL. You got one team.

    -Force : Attacks in charge, if he can bring back Iron Survivor it directly become a serious wb team. Siaxis, okyo and Cres are sometimes in, or were recently, and twl is probably the best reason to play tw so if a new season is announced they could be interested by defending their title. If Skepsis reappear he could choose to defend his title with Force instead of Fierce. Which could make another very serious wb team, they beat a team consisted of RaCka, Mythril and Best last season. It may be hard in jav and impossible in base but it doesn't matter since Force is supposed to be a wb team, but Attacks is appreciated by people so he could be able to recruit some talented jav/baser who don't know which team to go. Potenza in TWD, Force in TWL, this team need to regroup but they can be serious.

    -dicE : cripple in charge, he has been the most active dicE member recently and Cape only reappeared as a ghost so far. dicE main core lack of active players recently, but many people have been champs on that team, and it's the most winningest team of twl history so it shouldn't be hard for cripple to recruit some talents. This team is supposed to be a favorite in all divisions, cripple could tell Steadman to join them as he would be the superstar he isn't in Thunder. And what's good with large roster (like 24) is that you can bring some legends and if they don't show it's not risky, so cripple could tell to many dicE legends to join no matter what will be their showrate.

    -Thunder : Ease in charge, the favourite in all leagues yeah but what's new? As wb and jav are 5v5 Ease won't be able to take the 10 best player in all divisions, because players will join a team where they gonna have playtime. And few main players could want to play for an other team this time, as most players do sometimes. This team would not be difficult to form since they got many talented and active players. Power in TWDT, zombie in TWD, Thunder in TWL.

    -Dudgeon : Dreamwin in charge, his finnish community are not very active most times (that's why Dreamwin is on Envy, one of the two main TWD teams) but when it's time to play serious competition they are mostly there. Adding Commodo who have been champ with them make it automaticaly a serious jav and a favourite in base. Could ask Jones to help them in wb as they won't have many. Terrorist in TWDT, Dudgeon in TWL.

    -Cobra : thix in charge, he could keep turban and Trasher and so are automatically a contender in base. Kim was active recently, he is a serious jav so the team can still be a jav contender. Maybe Rough would like to show Ease how to play jav again. And maybe Lord Tiny will choose to stay with them. So jav/base and probably not a playoffs contender in wb but no matter, they would play anyway. RaCka could choose to join them to follow TWDT and so would become a wb playoffs contender.

    Take a look at TWDT, does Blind is a base contender? Clearly not, does Terrorist is a wb contender, not as well. With this version of TWL, teams would look like TWDT. A favourite team (Thunder/Power) and every team with at least one league speciality. And with qualification in terms of division ranking instead of overall ranking (which fits well with draft system but not on regular system), playoffs would be of a very high level, i could imagine fierce/force/dice/thunder in wb, thunder/dice/cobra/dudgeon or fierce in jav and thunder/dice/cobra/dudgeon in base.

    Concerning what you said Ogron, it fits perfectly with what i'm saying. It won't interfere with TWD so TWD activity will remains the same, and the level can be comparable to TWDT. And we got enough players to fill teams, as seen with TWDT. dicE lack many of their players, but they can recruit for exemple Kira, nowon, hulk, Best, why not Steadman as I said.. and at the end being a 3 leagues contender.

    Concerning you Lord Tiny you got many possibilities :

    Will you join Cobra to try to be jav champ twice in a row with them?
    or will you join dicE to help them and why not being 3 times jav champs with them?
    or will you join the stack team aka Thunder to add many medals to your profile?
    or will you try to win 4 jav titles in a row with always a different team by joining Dudgeon for exemple?

    All I say is fictive so far but it can easily be done. As Major Crisis said we can't run twdt back to back it's obvious, but twdt is the only big attraction since 2 years and I am sure using twdt structure (except for draft and * limitations) for twl would fits perfectly to alternate, with twdt being the more inclusive version.

    Can Henry Saari give his opinion on this?

  9. #29
    Registered User skyforger's Avatar
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    Feel like ppl itt want twst afterall, the planned league that got scrapped/postponed to run this ongoing twdt. basically twdt but instead of draft ppl self-organize into squads with their mates

    TWST

    * Gameplay is like TWDT but with same teams as TWD Season
    * A full fledged main league nearly same duration as a TWD season
    * Scheduled games in a Round Robin format with single elim playoffs
    * TWST uses reserved low star spots similar to TWDT.

    WB/JAV
    2x unlimited, 1x 8-Star, 1x 7-Star, 1x 6-Star

    BASE
    4x unlimited, 2x 8-Star, 1x 7-Star, 1x- 6-Star
    edit: also lol at zitboy itt telling we cant have twl and some still taking him srs

  10. #30
    Hellrazor ronaldinho's Avatar
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    With all the respect due to these teams, cause i'm aware i'm a trash player, but if your objective is to run a league consisted of Paladen/Sulake/Kong/Wolf.. you can't even dream of bringing some legends back. I think only you and maybe JB-Inc took it seriously. Concerning * limitations, yeah maybe some could be agree with you, like Tiny, but i'm not at all as I said.

    What is your goal? To be captain on every leagues you and your little friends run like a spoiled child, or to makes leagues the most competitive and attractive possible? Call it TWL, invit the teams I said, and you got the best way to hype the most people. Do your famous "TWST" and run into the wall. But do what you want, I wouldn't be unhappy to see you doing an other trash league like TWD 2.0.

  11. #31
    give life, take death qan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claushouse
    There was absolutely no need to try to implement the Elim style ratings fluctuations on the value of each kill, because in Elim you can avoid the good players and just spec after bagging scrubs early. You can't avoid the good players in TSL or you miss out on the win bonus. Also, most veterans knockout newbies early then fight the better players late, so it doesn't add anything.
    For the most part the formula's the same. You'd earn about .7 for killing an unranked/low-tier player, and about 1.7 for a 100-rated.

    As I understand it, the issue we were seeing was that at the beginning of a match, many vets were competing to wipe out the new players as fast as possible. Only huge scores end up counting, so it's an absolute necessity to get as many easy kills as possible before the chance dries up. Meanwhile, if you're an average player, running away from a top player is the best course of action if they're worth the same as anyone else. As you point out, this mirrors normal strategy -- take out the newbies, save vets for the end. But it was becoming more extreme. Risking death on the chance that you might not die and perhaps will fluke into a great score... because the point is, only a good score is meaningful in TSL. You need to win, of course, but also have a rare performance. Both of those are 100% essential. Just trying to win the game and do right by your team isn't enough to actually excel in TSL. And the factor you have more agency over is getting that fluke performance, particularly at the start of the match when the competition is lighter.

    This wasn't such a problem in the beginning of TSL, because I think this strategy hadn't quite evolved yet. I'm not sure just going back unweighted kills would make everything better. Certainly could be tried, though. But I'm guessing we'd see similar issues once more. As I understand, this is one of the reasons TSL began feeling less and less satisfying. Felt more like gambling. Not sure how to get away from that. It's played as a team game but when it's all down to personal score, everyone's going to (have to) rec. Even if the win bonus is 50, and you receive 0 rating for losing, the optimum strategy is still to rush the newbies at the start, even if you risk careless deaths. Hope you don't take too many deaths scraping up the easy bites ... and then hope your team wins. If you don't get those easy kills at the start while taking a small # of deaths, it doesn't matter whether your team wins or not. The performance is null. So that means your win actually kinda feels like a loss. (Again, this is all couched within the non-committal "As I understand it...", which is to say, my understanding is that of an outsider, garnered mostly from impressions I've taken from various people in the community.)

    It might be worth looking at simple match W/L % as the determining factor. Given roughly even teams, who at the end of the season (and having played at least X games) wins the largest percentage of their games? Just brainstorming. Because as long as getting as many lucky personal performances as possible is the key to winning TSL, it's probably just not going to feel much like winning. And you're going to have a lot of frustrating games along the way to that "win." If we can reframe it more toward winning matches somehow, as just about every other team-based league runs, we might be able to get away from that underwhelming feeling.


    On a separate note, I believe the WB and Jav matchmaking ratings have been automatic for the past two seasons? I sent Qan the formulas to remove human input after Season 1. I know they weren't implemented in Season 2 due to time constraints, but I think they were slated for Season 3. I didn't play S3 or S4 so I'm not sure if it got added.
    The ratings are floating currently, yeah. Also due to time constraints, after public discussion it was vastly simplified (what's simple on an Excel sheet is often not so simple in code, especially on 17-18+ year old Frankenstein tech like MatchBot). If your performance was a small margin better than an average 1:1, +1. If weaker, -1. If you won the match, +1. If you lost, -1. Base was a little more difficult, but basically, we took the average value of basing performances for the previous season. If your value was in the bottom 25% of performances, -1; +1 if top 25%. Then +2 for win, -2 for loss. Players could observe rating changes live after each match.

    A group of TSLOps still adjusted scores. One would put in a rating, and another Op would need to approve. One of the biggest problems in early TSL was the dark horse phenomenon, where players unknown to the TW competitive scene, often pros from other zones, would play games at a rating of 40. It was honestly way too much work for one person. So Ops put in a ton of work giving many people initial ratings, and after that point the bot could take over.
    "You're a gentleman," they used to say to him. "You shouldn't have gone murdering people with a hatchet; that's no occupation for a gentleman."
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  12. #32
    Sig Inspired By Dreamwin Claushouse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Major Crisis View Post
    Anyone who won something moved there and you can see it in the TWD games too, they are extremely boring. Or are you saying you enjoy playing games which end 50-30 all the time? I wouldnt be too surprised if you did...
    I play TWD with the same people I've been playing TWD with since I was with Zidane and Mattey on Sage (TWL S15) and BONK! (TWDT 2011), when we had 0 titles to our names and had won nothing.

    I play with the same people today.

    That our group has won a lot of titles has nothing to do with it. It's not my fault Fierce, Dice, Pene, etc. quit. If they were all still here, I'd still be playing with the same people, even if we weren't favored.
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  13. #33
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    I dont think TWL is going to work because there isnt enough shit talking anymore. Except for Steadman vs the world, but thats only because he has some religious issues with bacon and beer.

    A few years ago there were some good squad rivalries going on, Thunder and Dice for example. Riverside vsing Racka and so on. I had some too and while it was never personal it made the game much more fun and competitive. People were trying hard!

    Today, the population has dwindled so much we are all just one big, happy, dysfunctional redneck family. TWDT is good.
    Quote Originally Posted by jerome
    can we stop and wonder in amazement at the fact that we play a VIDEO GAME that has "generations"???

  14. #34
    Cows 4 magic beans! Attacks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jones View Post
    I dont think TWL is going to work because there isnt enough shit talking anymore. Except for Steadman vs the world, but thats only because he has some religious issues with bacon and beer.

    A few years ago there were some good squad rivalries going on, Thunder and Dice for example. Riverside vsing Racka and so on. I had some too and while it was never personal it made the game much more fun and competitive. People were trying hard!

    Today, the population has dwindled so much we are all just one big, happy, dysfunctional redneck family. TWDT is good.
    Think their still is rivalries, Racka, Beam, Best , Vys, Mythril are all that opposite of wherever I am. I have never joined a squad with them on in years because quite simply I love the rivalry, Racka getting mad when I spawn him, Beam shouting newbie from spec. I realised this is what keeps me warbirding.
    Thats why I was in Force/Potenza and now Envy as that is the new opposite force.

  15. #35
    anime master Turban's Avatar
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    while in theory it is possible to have a rather good TWL season with few solid teams I feel it would do harm than good to the zone given how the league by design only caters to a very small competitive player base while excluding those of lesser skill from the fun, and in all fairness it seems like most of the competitive top players do not want TWL to return to preserve its legacy.

    .. and to not derail from the topic: TSL to me seems like something that can't be sustained for a longer period of time, but can work as a temporary bandaid to stop the bleeding. I do not have the competitive drive to participate in any shape or form, but if the community wants it to return then I see no harm in it.

  16. #36
    zeebu 'DUMPTRUCK' johnson Zeebu's Avatar
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    twl dun ded, give it up.

    twl was always play with whoever you want to play with within normal squad size limitations. if you restrict the limitations to something ridiculous its no longer twl, its basically twdt.

    the fact is we no longer have the population to support a real twl. on top of that everyone has gotten old and now have lives that require doing other stuff on sundays. few people really go out of their way (or have the ability to go out of their way) to make it a point to play a 20 year old vidya game for 6 hours in the middle of a sunday.

    twdt, tsl, revamped twd and elim are all reasons people can still come back to the game and try to flex their 2d spaceship competitive muscles. we're making the best of what we have left, yall.

    the event i would suggest are some single day mini-tourneys. 3vs3 double elimination tournaments that end on the same day. would work out for either wb or jav though not on the same day. maybe give each team the option of a 4th player to allow for a sub. 16 teams of 4 give you 48 players. team creation totally up to the players themselves. its nothing fancy and there are no ratings or gimmicks, but it would all be done on the same day. an added benefit is that i assume there'd be basically 0 coding involved since nothing is outside the normal gameplay.

    with some decent advertisement leading up to it i think you could make it a nice success. there would be a healthy amount of trash talk in the later rounds since thered probably be some observers that would stick around.

    it certainly isnt TWL, but it should end up pitting the best vs the best in the end.


    1996 Minnesota State Pooping Champion

  17. #37
    Registered User Omega Red's Avatar
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    Claushouse, Turbin, and MC are right. TWL would be pointless at this point, and the finals would be so predictable. I do not think TWL would be healthy for majority of the zone and as clause said, it kills twd.

    MC is right n the sense most elite players have congregated to 2 squads. I don't know why this is, but there are a few dudes who still enjoy vsing them (see Wolf).

    TSL type matchmaking leagues are the future and we should strive to add more events to TSL.

    Bug anyone? Attack? Fighter? I'm sure you smart kids can come up with a different dynamic, fun game type (if it's even required).

    The matchmaking system is probably the best suited for these times since it mixes up players every game. Sure, sometimes there isn't a big pool of players and the matchmakings suck for a few games but it's not perfect.

    Don't get me wrong, I love TWDT. It's great for the zone but I feel like if and when the top tier pilots are less willing to cap (or just quit the game), TWDT could collapse if there are no more competent captains left.

    Every year it seems to be a struggle to find adequate guys willing to cap.

  18. #38
    Plade Cap Dreamwin's Avatar
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    TWL _COULD_ work with very strict roster limitations of like 10 or 12. I've been telling this ever since TWL died.

    I think the better way to go would be short mini-tournaments like zeebu suggested which would last from 1 week to 4 weeks. Just enforce very strict roster limitations (starting 5 + 1 sub in wb/jav --- starting 8 + 1/2 in base). This way we could actually get highly competetive games. It could be run seperately for each ship so you could form different teams for each division.

    Not quite TWL, not quite TWDT but potential to be highly competetive.

    For example, I enjoy very much playing 4s+ TWJD games when the lineup consist only 8*+ players.
    Season 12 champion TWLD / TWLJ
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    The winningest TWDT captain of all time

  19. #39
    Hellrazor ronaldinho's Avatar
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    OK I give up I understand people's feelings, thanks for taking the time to think about it, i excited myself lol.

    Concerning TSL, all that matters to me is that Ogron or Wirah or whoever else do the array of winners don't forget to add me on base season 4, and don't forget my eagle banner please, I'll smile when entering the arena.

  20. #40
    zeebu 'DUMPTRUCK' johnson Zeebu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamwin View Post
    TWL _COULD_ work with very strict roster limitations of like 10 or 12. I've been telling this ever since TWL died.

    I think the better way to go would be short mini-tournaments like zeebu suggested which would last from 1 week to 4 weeks. Just enforce very strict roster limitations (starting 5 + 1 sub in wb/jav --- starting 8 + 1/2 in base). This way we could actually get highly competetive games. It could be run seperately for each ship so you could form different teams for each division.

    Not quite TWL, not quite TWDT but potential to be highly competetive.

    For example, I enjoy very much playing 4s+ TWJD games when the lineup consist only 8*+ players.
    thats why i suggested only a single day format with a bunch of small teams. early games would have to be run concurrently. it would make sense to have it seeded as well, everyone knows who the favorites would be. i thought about suggesting 4s with a sub but im not sure we could field 16 teams of 5. thats 80 people... i dont think there would be enough people to run a day long squad for that. thats why i'd push for only 3s.

    im ignoring base altogether because i know we dont have the population to run more than ... maybe... 3 competitive teams of 8. probably not even that.


    1996 Minnesota State Pooping Champion

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